Apostasy: The Rifqa Bary Case

Muslim father threatens to kill daughter for leaving Islam; Muslims claim victim status

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This is, of course, how Islamic groups in the U.S. have reacted to every act of violence and every threat that any Muslim has issued in recent years: they’ve raised fears of a non-existent “backlash” and claimed they’re being persecuted, rather than address the root causes of the violence and brutality within their own community. And the bemused, befuddled multiculturalists in the mainstream media go along with it happily, every time.

Forget about Rifqa’s charge that her father threatened to kill her. This was all provoked by the media’s favorite whipping boy, “evangelical Christians.”

The frustration for many Muslims in Central Florida is that the accusations of one teenage girl who says she fears her father would kill her for becoming a Christian has become a wholesale distortion of their religion.

“We feel frustrated because this is a family problem of a certain family, and the way it has been portrayed is defaming Islam and giving a way, way negative picture of our religion,” said Imam Tariq Rasheed, director of the Islamic Center of Orlando.

See how it works? Father threatens to kill girl, in full accord with Islamic law regarding apostates. Girl flees, and reports what her father said. And suddenly this becomes an act of “defaming Islam.” Even if Rifqa’s father didn’t actually threaten her, there is nothing in the least unbelievable about the charge that he did, in light of the many killings of apostates and threats to their lives that take placefrequently in the Islamic world.

Yet if you speak of this, you’re “defaming Islam” — a clever ploy to try to deflect attention away from the killings for apostasy, and from the father’s alleged threat, and onto Muslims as being victimized by coverage of all this.

Rifqa Bary and the Noor Islamic Center’s “Theology” of Apostasy

by Andrew Bostom /Bostom goes right into Islamic jurisprudence….

Update:

Florida law enforcement led on wild goose chase by CAIR’s mole inside Ohio DHS

Why couldn’t Florida investigators find out the material in this pdf about the mosque attended by Rifqa Bary’s parents? Because a high-placed individual didn’t want them to: “BREAKING: FL Rifqa investigators were led around by CAIR’s Islamist Homeland Security mole,” from the Jawa Report, September 1, via JW:

Two weeks ago Florida Judge Daniel Lawson directed the Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement to investigate the Columbus, Ohio Islamic community to provide him sufficient information to accurately assess the potential threat to Rifqa Bary if she were returned to her family in Ohio.

We can now report that those FDLE investigators were led on a wild goose chase to avoid the unsavory and terror-tied elements of the Bary family mosque by CAIR’s Islamist mole in the Ohio Dept. of Public Safety, Omar Alomari, director of the ODPS Office of Multicultural Affairs.

As a result, those same FDLE investigators were sent reeling yesterday with the filing and release of an extensively footnoted 35 page brief by Rifqa’s attorney (which we noted here) documenting the terrorist ties of the Bary family mosque. Why were they not able to discover this information on their own during their visit to Ohio last week? Why couldn’t they discover any evidence of Islamic extremism in Central Ohio, home to the largest known Al-Qaeda cell in the US since 9/11?

When FDLE investigators traveled to Columbus last week, Alomari’s involvement in directing their investigation assured that they would never receive the information they had been sent to gather….

There is more. Read it all.

52 thoughts on “Apostasy: The Rifqa Bary Case”

  1. “Allah” will have his snitch reading this, ready to attack the “agenda-driven blog-owner”, while claiming that none of this has anything to do
    with islam.

  2. Now why would someone like you say that eh? Because you would go out of your way to condemn someone’s faith and tell them that their only salvation is to follow yours.

    I would rather give respect to all those that suffer repression, conflict and pain due to the multitude of factors which include culture-clashes, horrible tribal values, influence from radicalism and extremism and sometimes (like in your case and what I have witnessed myself) those rather disgusting evangalists that go out of the way to create conflict and hate for the benefit of preaching their own faith.

    There is of course agenda here from the blog-owner, for the example the references from the usual BS of FronPage Magazine and Andrew Bostom.

    1. Interesting that you are so disgusted by those “evangalists” Solkhar.

      So much so that you snitch on them to protect your cult of hate… Ever listened to what these ‘evangalists’ have to say and compared it with your own hate-preachers?

  3. * rather disgusting evangalists

    What is it that really disgusts you, Solkhar, the “evangalists”,
    or their message, the evangelion (good news), which is this:

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

    Does this message really disgust you, Solkhar?

    To the extend that you would dob in someone for preaching it?

    If so, you are the future, Solkhar. Enjoy it, while it lasts.

  4. Good on this girl for having the courage of her convictions. How can islam be anything other than a prison when people are not free to leave it?

  5. Mullah Lodabullah wrote: Does this message really disgust you, Solkhar? To the extend that you would dob in someone for preaching it?

    I’m not quite sure what you mean by this. Whats is going on?

    1. DP111,
      In an earlier thread solkhar proudly reported that he dobs in Christian missionaries who go proselytizing in Morocco, which is, as you may know, forbidden. Mullah asked what problem he (solkar) has with the Christian message…

      Couldn’t have anything to do with “repression, conflict and pain due to the multitude of factors which include culture-clashes, horrible tribal values, influence from radicalism and extremism…”

      No. We all know that the ‘Religion of Peace” doesn’t cause these problems. Must be the Methodists or the Amish…

  6. Good point Theresaj – if one cannot leave islam then it is a prison. But please note that some muslims will almost certainly say yes – good luck – and accept this decision with good spirit – the problem are the others. I know at least one family (the family immigrated from Turkey) who have accepted this decision of their children. There is a very deep problem when a family will threaten a daughter with execution for believing in another faith and I would be surprised if it is representativc of all. What sort of G_D requires unthinking and blind obedience in this form?? At the risk of being repetitious – islamists out on their ears or in coffins – either suits – the others who are willing to integrate should be given a chance (and I believe that many will – but this is very dependent of the society they come from e.g. some pakistani tribal groups will always be a problem – so dont let them in and avoid the problem – I suspect Tarhide is one of these – i will track it down and let folks know) .

  7. As a follower of Jesus Christ and a Baptist Minister, I pray that this young woman is able to live without fear and stress of what her family could do to her if she had to go back to them. This is still the United States of America. Rifqa Bary has rights as a citizen to protect her. The Bary family chose to live in this country, why? It is still the greatest country on the face of the planet, even with all of its problems. This teen has the right and freedom to practice the religion of her choice. Her estranged family is letting their pride cloud their judgment. Jesus God the Son did die on the cross to pay the sins for all of mankind. Can that be said of the Islam faith? Rifqa Bary now understands and accepts that fact. If she has to go back to Ohio and be sentenced to death by the hand of her father then why not legalize murder. Maybe I don’t understand the Muslim faith, but I do know that Jesus Christ said to love your enemies and forgive others as you expect your heavenly Father to forgive you. How does Allah forgive?

  8. Personally I have no problems with someone leaving Islam, but I am also a realist and I know that it can lead to disharmony of the family unit which I think is very sad.

    As for the Christian Message – since I believe in the Prophethood of Jesus (Issa) I venerate and respect that message. DP111, what you need to know is that I “abhore” Evangelists and Missionaries that go out of their way to condemn the religion of the inhabitants and then in the same breath say that the only way to save your soul is by joining my their faith. That is what is evil and that is a part of why it is not tolerated and I support that fully – and if coming to the crunch – will actively support it as I did.

    Getting back to apostacy, though for me it is a matter of choice, I should also point out that I object to certain ex-Muslims profitting from the right-wing agenda and capitalizing for their own benefit and claiming/using their ex-Muslim status to justify their BS when that is what is the case.

    There are, of course, many ex-Muslims or agnostic Muslims or aethiests who grew up in Islam whom simply get on with their lives, do not claim or exagerate and say they hated this or that but simply did not believe and that is all. You will note that all the vocal ex-Muslims write books, appear on TV because they want to make business out of it.

    In the case of Bary above, she probably was having the usual teen social conflict issues with her parents and family and thus became a good target to prosthelitizers and then reputation hungry agenda based lawyers (like hers definitly is) took control and if you took her asside for a week and then asked you will find that she is not in control and wishes the whole thing goes away.

    I certainly do not agree with death penalities for those whom become apostates, but I accept the social, cultural and religious conservativeness of the Muslim community and how things are slowly changing. Many, not yet most, Muslim countries do not execute apostates but imprison them for small sentances unless they are caught “attacking Islam” and then they are punished to the full extent. Here in Morocco, apostacy is considered a minor crime (infringement) but prosthelitizing or attacking Islam in public is considered a full crime. The reality is that a person who becomes a Christian, choses not to activelly be a Muslim will get on with his or her life if they do not make it a public issue – mind you that they have family and that is were the problem comes from.

    I suggest people stop reading the internet blogs and read actual facts, figures, real books and especially academic material before thinking they know the reality on the ground. In fact, travel.

  9. “I certainly do not agree with death penalities for those whom become apostates, but…”

    But but butbutbutbutbut……..

    “I suggest people stop reading the internet blogs ….”

    Butbutbutbutbutbut….

    Watcha gonna do about it, troll?

  10. I am doing much blog-owner, people are reading my postings and are starting to get the picture about what is real and what is not and they are certainly getting to understand your motives.

  11. Thanks, it just reconfirms what I have been saying.

    It is clear what is your motives which you have confessed on two threads now – demonizing Islam so that the ethnic-cleansing of the West Bank will look justified.

  12. The world would be a much better place without Muslims in it, trying to push their idiotic agenda down every ones throat. This is what makes America great, here we have the right to chose, to worship as we see fit as long as our worship does not violate the rights of others. Its a shame, that Muslims come to America and think they have the right to bully people and other religions, into accepting Middle East agenda or even think that they are exempt from the law based on Islomic philosophy. In America ” we don’t care how you did it over there” you are accountable to the law before religion because all religions are accepted here. You have the right to choose.

  13. Roy Cain,

    with all due respect, I suggest you look at the realities. Many Americans, American organisations and for the last decade the Admnistration (until recently) has basically alienated itself by spreading Western-chauvenism and even specific American-chauvensim throughout the rest of the world.

    Your references of accountability does not stick, your constant assumption and putting it into former government policy and trade deals with a foul concept that if it is not done your way then it is wrong.

    American and British western banking has caused the world to fall into a global recession that only a revamp of your myopic concept of morals will solve and the dangerous tauting that only western-liberal deomocracy has been, in fact, the greatest cause of destruction, poverty and corruption in the developing world.

    The United States is a great place, I adore much of it, but it came also at a huge price, an arrogant right-wing that believes they are the cure to the world and a very bad lack of knowledge and willingness to bother to understand that there is world out there that is just as good, with its on rights and it is not American.

    Saying “In America we……” is not a stable platform to start on.

  14. The problem with islam is that it was designed to be the latest & final religion. It was expected that people of other faith should accept the islamic faith one way or another. Since it copied and extended other religions, especially Judaism. Anything that derails from this concept is a danger to islam.

    And when other religions start to sprung in general Judasim, with the creation of israel, islam felt threatened and the very foundations that it promised of unity & power will go downhill & collapse if israel succeeds to be a jewish control.

    muslims have an inbreed conceptual understanding about this. they would do whatever they can by eliminating non muslims from advancing & prevent muslims to convert out of islam.

    this is a problem because muslims in general say they respect other religions but they do not practice it generally because of this believe.

    its humiliating for a muslim to believe in something & yet try to fit into an equal opportunity & free nation. thats why they feel offended & are willing to go to great lengths to do what they believe in, even to kill an apostate.

    what muslims do not understand & they will not contest it IS the quran can never be proven to be gods (or allah in their terms) words.

    Its a simple case of procedure that went awry. The process of collecting the quran was wrong. Those who opposed some verses were muhammads good friends before he became a muslim were ignored.

    even the compilation & organization of the quran was copied from the evangelist standard (bible as we know today).

    how can any muslim understand anything from the quran, when it was written & organized a different way?

    it was god who wrote it, but man. And as man makes mistakes all the time, so is the quran thats known today.

    is that not true dear solkhar?

  15. Ah! Christians preaching hate. Or is it a my dog’s better kinda thing? What about the Jews? You guys haven’t gotten on thier case yet. Maybe because thier path to god doesen’t require a middle man. The reality is there will never be peace on earth. Never has been. If all the Muslims were gone we would be Prod. against Cath. If you need to hate something hate the weather. Or pot holes in the road. Or your conressman.

  16. I can say ” in America we” because I’m in America. I’m not in the Middle East saying it. This girl, as all women have the right to choose what religion they want to follow. Again, this nation was built on having religious choice in worshiping, the way we choose fit to worship, as long as your worship dose not infringe on the rights of others. I say, let God do judgment not us. This should not even be an issue for us to here about but here it is in the news. If she feels it is too dangerous for her to return to her family she should not have to return home. I can’t understand why choice of religion is such a big deal in other countries.

  17. Also, Don’t blame the US or Western countries for Middle East failure. Lets put the blame where it belongs, on the pathetic governments that govern that area of the wold. These governments lack human compassion for their own people, they are dark, evil, and ran by selfish dictators and kings that steal the economic growth from the people.

  18. tjwork has yet again tried to give his own logic to a subject he clearly has no understanding and in the end it is a lot of “muslims do this and muslims do that” which immediately shows its failure because of its generalizatios.

    Roy Cain simply does not get it, his “In America we do this” is rather amusing since his facts about his own country is wrong. Yes the founding fathers of America put high standards but that is easily written but the reality was something else. Catholics were shunned except for the slums of New York, some of the founding fathers were slave owners and it took a century before a war was fought and another hundred years before some real differences occured.

    As for his understanding of the causes of the world’s ills, they are already clear and documented (unless your relly on agenda-based hate blogs that try and rewrite history). The Middle-East is the way it is for three main reasons only with a lot of complicated modifiers. The first and most is Colonization and Annexation by Western Powers. It forced a lack of social development and though some cities and infrastructures were created, it was for the basis to create more fluid movement of wealth back home. It aslo ensured that those who supported the colonizer were turned into a middle-class that became the leadership after decolonization. This, in turn, ensured also there was a large level of disinfranchised and poor masses with a legitimate grudge.

    The second cause for problems in the Middle-East is a direct result of the first subject of colonization – religious radicalism. It created an excuse for religious-radicals to convince the majority of the population that they are the only way to fight, combat and change their lives is rejecting everything that these Western colonizers have done.

    The third is again something that the West is involved in, from the time of decolonizatin and independance to this very day. The rediculous assumption that western liberal democracy is the cure-all. It only created corruption, wars, more poverty and false-hopes that they will become like the west.

    No excuses, these are facts.

    1. Wonderful, Solkie. Thanks for confirming that the sharia beats liberal democracy 2 hands down anytime.

      As for corruption, wars and poverty: I daresay that Islam-infested/occupied countries are world champions when it comes to that, without any input from us infidels.

      But thanks for this little morsel here, which I’m going to have for desert:

      ‘As for his understanding of the causes of the world’s ills, they are already clear and documented (unless your relly on agenda-based hate blogs that try and rewrite history). The Middle-East is the way it is for three main reasons only with a lot of complicated modifiers. The first and most is Colonization and Annexation by Western Powers. It forced a lack of social development and though some cities and infrastructures were created, it was for the basis to create more fluid movement of wealth back home. It aslo ensured that those who supported the colonizer were turned into a middle-class that became the leadership after decolonization. This, in turn, ensured also there was a large level of disinfranchised and poor masses with a legitimate grudge.’

      1. “complicated modifiers. The first and most is Colonization and Annexation”-

      No country in North Africa or the ME is annexed or colonized by western countries. Fact is that all these countries are occupied by Arabs since the eight century and the inhabitants forcibly converted to Islam, which made them turn into raiders, corsairs, pirates, thieves, slave traders, assassins, cutthroats, vagabonds and religious fanatics.

      A Mohammedan is rarely seen to do any constructive.

      From Morocco to Algeria, from Tunesia to Egypt and to Lebanon, the existing infrastructure has been brought to you by 150 years of colonial occupation.
      None of your countries have achieved anything since decolonialization, nothing, nada, zilch, nulla, niente… and you never will.

      2. ” It aslo ensured that those who supported the colonizer were turned into a middle-class that became the leadership after decolonization.”

      this is of course false and ridiculous: those who were loyal to the colonial powers would all be murdered by the soldiers of Allah, which is the reason why the French, these great humanitarians, took great numbers of Algeriennes back home with them. The result of this misguided humanitarianism is now coming to bite them in the ass.

      3. As for “it was for the basis to create more fluid movement of wealth back home” I beg to differ.

      Your Mohammedan raiders have raided the coasts of the Mediterranean for a 1000 years with impunity and took over a million white slaves. When compared with 150 years of occupation and the benefit of Western knowhow and investment-infrastructure it is you Mohammed worshippers who have benefitted, not us.

      YOU OWE US, not the other way around.

      Once again, when you say ‘facts’ I spell it with a ‘u’….

  19. Solkhar , I don’t know where you got your facts from on Catholics, they are everywhere across America and none are being shunned. That’s a ridiculous statement. You need to pick your head up out of the sand and quit trying to justify the ills of the Middle East by blaming the West. Lets, see, People from over there come here because —- WE ARE A BLESSED COUNTRY—– If the Middle East was so blessed then they could have stayed home because they would have economic oppertunity, medical technology and freedom but we all now that its just not true. I personally would never give up being an American for anything the Middle East has. It’s just not worth it.

  20. [tjwork has yet again tried to give his own logic to a subject he clearly has no understanding and in the end it is a lot of “muslims do this and muslims do that” which immediately shows its failure because of its generalizatios.]

    Dear Solkhar, Please be a sport. Do not avoid my question by discrediting me. If you are incapable of doing that, I’l rephrase my question so you may understand it better.

    Logic is a gift of god & Im very fortunate to apply it. I said what I said from 11 years of islamic studies. My association of muslim leaders that agree with this statement. Again this year, I am invited to the islamic unity conference in kuala lumpur, despite me not being a muslim.

    The answer is simple, I never bash islam but I bash idiots. & you are very close to fall into this category.

    Everyone knows the facts I written & its eventual that things happen as it is today. Your position is based on the one that islam is a peaceful religion & others especially the radicals are giving it a bad name. Thats fine, Im simple telling you the source if this problem. By your definition, every muslim is a time bomb, a radical wanna be. My definition is that they cant have two believes & this conflicts them making them vulnerable about their faith.

    Tell me solkhar, how do you base you faith on something a man has compiled? Do you ever think about the process of compiling the quran? If there were errors? Are you on Allah’s side or Man’s side? If you are in Allah’s side, you would question & get the truth & defend the truth, because the compilation is done by man, not the prophet & definitely not by god. Not give reasons & discredit people. Take a minute to think about it.

    Just what if you did just that & the whole process is restarted again? the Quran would be rewritten from the real truth & muslims & possibly the world would share its wisdom? Just what if? The whole world would know you as a hero & the defender of islam.

    If you can answer, please do politely, If you cant, its fine. I will always answer you politely. Just keep thinking about it. Which side are you on?

  21. “Thanks for confirming that the sharia beats liberal democracy 2 hands down anytime.”

    Another blog-owner twist, did I really say that? No, of course I did not, you did. Anyone who reads my posts will no that I do not support Shari’a legal systems but secular ones. I also stated that the head of the Al Quaraouine University, one of the Five Schools of Islam also said that for a Muslim country tha correctly reflects society will not need a formal theocratically run Shari’a System.

    But of course you have an agenda for demonizing Islam so that you can justify to others your desire to ethnically cleans the West Bank of Muslims – because Gold told you to.

    As for the other BS, you said:

    “From Morocco to Algeria, from Tunesia to Egypt and to Lebanon, the existing infrastructure has been brought to you by 150 years of colonial occupation.
    None of your countries have achieved anything since decolonialization, nothing, nada, zilch, nulla, niente… and you never will.”

    Algeria is backwards, after the French left the country in a mess it succumbed to following commism and that screwed it up. It has oil and gas yet remains poor.

    Tunisia, great place, strong tourism and agriculture sector, not of which was put in place by the French.

    Egypt, after military dictatorships remains strong, again in the tourism industry, something the colonizers did not produce.

    Lebanon – for me should not exist, it is a mess because of colonizors trying to create a nation from nothing.

    Morocco – infrastructure from France fell to bits in the late 1980’s, almost all that is here now is self-created, considering that it has no oil or gas and is technically poorer than its neighbours, has a standard of living, judicial standards, safety levels and education levels much higher than all its neighbours – self created and self-made.

    Basically, your argument was complete garbage and embarassing to your knowledge of geo-politics.

    “those who were loyal to the colonial powers would all be murdered by the soldiers of Allah, which is the reason why the French, these great humanitarians, took great numbers of Algeriennes back home with them. The result of this misguided humanitarianism is now coming to bite them in the ass.”

    We are talking about cause and history here, of which you have failed miserably in every instance. Basic text book history on colonization, the creation of a loyal middle-class and educated elite that later took control and proved to be in most cases corrupt.

    Then you came out with the even more rediculous:

    “Your Mohammedan raiders have raided the coasts of the Mediterranean for a 1000 years with impunity and took over a million white slaves. When compared with 150 years of occupation and the benefit of Western knowhow and investment-infrastructure it is you Mohammed worshippers who have benefitted, not us.”

    We are talking about colonization and decolonization. I now you could not keep up and would change the subject, but then your change got it all wrong as well.

    Statistics clearly shows that the period of slavery by the West was at “factory” production levels that any other levels of slavery (that all socieities have done) fall in to insignificance compared to. Thus that is a wasted statement to try and deflect that you cannot compete in a subject of what the West’s effects to the developing world “to this very day” are.

    Your continued belief that “Western knowhow and investment-infrastructure ” is something to be proud, most if not the vast majority of that came ” after decolonization and with strings attached to it to ensure the continued bleeding of developing countries. I was a part of that structure, I know it very, very well indeed.

    Nobody owes anybody anything because history is history. It is nothign to do with owing but learning and recognising history and learning from it. Not your fake agenda-based history but the reality on the ground, like Western-chauvensim’s existance because it is economically better off it thought the world owed it hommage when it did not. Because the Christian West dominated the world for so long (militarily and economically) it tried to supress the histories of other nations for way to long, Spain did that with its now proud Islamic past, as the best example.

    Failure on your part yet again blog-owner.

  22. Roy Cain,

    try reading before you consider who’s head is in the sand.

    We are talking history, as you did and claimed your country was built on religious freedoms. In the books yes, but much of the reality was something else for millions of people. I was talking history, not present day.

    I have no problems with you being roud of your country, not at all . I have family whom are Americans, very proud of it as well, in Orlando, DC and Sand Diego mostly. But they know also the reality of their history.

    Each nation is Blessed with its benefits and uniqueness, the US was built on the basis of shredding corrupt foreign rule and on the back of immigrants, great. It was also built on the backs of slaves and the theft/rape of its indigenous populations. A reality to learn from. That it can now have its first African-American President is something to be very proud of.

    Do not let ignorance, bigotry and self-gratification go overboard.

  23. Solker the detractor: “did I really say that?”

    Here’s what you said:

    … again something that the West is involved in, from the time of decolonizatin and independance to this very day. The rediculous assumption that western liberal democracy is the cure-all. It only created corruption, wars, more poverty and false-hopes that they will become like the west.

    The above is what you call “facts”.

    If you, as a Mohammedan, find western liberal democracy so unbearable, then what is it you want to replace western liberal democracy with?

    Sand? Dirt?

  24. tjwork, for someoen who claims that you have studied Islam for 11 years, invited to conferences and have Islamic leaders whom support you, all you have done is criticise Islam and “bash” it in all your postings to a degree that puts great doubt to your claims.

  25. See Solkhar, The rule of argument is to answer questions, The only rule to avoid questions is to discredit the person asking. This is the oldest trick in the book.

    My credentials are rather humble, there are many people better than me. I help many people & I ask many questions. Thus gaining friendship & trust. The path of truth is to seek the truth, & not to be afraid to question it.

    Come on Solkhar, You know I was not bashing Islam. I was merely asking for the ultimate truth.

    You have a serious problem, because, you personally have a conflicting believe that whom you defend. That is why you are eager to jump in to so call defend what you are really doing is to deflect.

    So, do you still want to discredit me or answer the question? Do you need me to rephrase the questions in perhaps point forms so may understand it?

    I have a feeling that you have never read about this chapter in Islamic history. If you don’t know, just say it. We will discuss this at another time when you are ready.

  26. [Solkhar] “But of course you have an agenda for demonizing Islam so that you can justify to others your desire to ethnically cleans the West Bank of Muslims – because Gold told you to.”

    Gold?

    What is it that muslims chant? Something like “Hamas, Hamas,
    Jews to the gas?”

    Isn’t it muslims who have sought to drive Israel into the sea since
    its rebirth as a nation? To erase it and the Jews?

    The psalmist had this to say about these demonic ambitions:
    Psalm 83 (in part)

    1 O God, do not keep silent; be not quiet, O God, be not still.
    2 See how your enemies are astir, how your foes rear their heads.
    3 With cunning they conspire against your people; they plot against those you cherish.
    4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”
    5 With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you-
    6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites,
    7 Gebal, [a] Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
    […]

    It is not going to happen, Solkhar – God will destroy the alliance,
    and deliver Israel, the apple of His eye.

    No amount of demonic islamic hatching and plotting can defeat God.

  27. Correction:

    [You have a serious problem, because, you personally have a conflicting believe that whom you defend. That is why you are eager to jump in to so call defend what you are really doing is to deflect.]

    To:

    You have a serious problem, because, you personally have a conflicting believe from that whom you defend. That is why you are eager to jump in to so call defend, but what you are really doing is to deflect.

  28. blog-owner,

    so your another who automatically assumes that western liberal democracy is the only way of governance.

    The word that is needed is Good Governance. Basically, the objective is for a country to be economically stable and its inhabitants safe and with opportunities for progression. Issues of political freedoms and participation, independant media etc are something that comes after the first points are fully realised.

    Western liberal democarcy works for those nations that have no alternative subsititute that fits and exists already.

    To give the best and most simple example, Morocco has a Monarchy that is enthusiastically accepted by its population. The Monarchy represents the history, culture and the State and thus has the responsibility to provide good governance which it does. It has on a number of occassions introduced lower levels of democracy and has a parliament, Prime Minister an cabinet. Previous attempts have failed because politically the country is immature, it probably is the case because this is a developing country and still has some way to go. Because of that, there are no 2, 3 or 4 major political parties but over 16 and each of them remain personality cults and not open political parties with its own internal democracy. The same goes with media and in fact the major newspapers are linked to those same personality cult. Most of the population supported the previous dismissal of governemnts as logical considering the bickering, and thus the strong management by the Monarch. The last two governments have basically worked with good and fair elections.

    My care and interest is that reality on the ground is understood and that the maximum is done to run the country fair and correctly. Be it a Western liberal Democracy or a Monarchy, or even a military dictatorship if it is needed or works, that is what is important.

    When a country is not ready for western liberal democracy, especially when that first group of definers is not present – there is catastrophy. You will find this is happening now in Iraq and in Afghanistan simply because there is no stability, the people are unhappy for a multitude of basic needs and reasons and thus installing western liberal democracy will certainly fail. Any successful system of governance is going to have to realise the realities on the ground and manage it with strength, for Afghanistan it is probably going to have to accept ultra-conservative Islam and Tribal values or it will fail.

    1. Solker sez:

      “so your another who automatically assumes that western liberal democracy is the only way of governance.”

      Not at all.

      “Morocco has a Monarchy that is enthusiastically accepted by its population. The Monarchy represents the history, culture and the State and thus has the responsibility to provide good governance which it does. It has on a number of occassions introduced lower levels of democracy and has a parliament, Prime Minister an cabinet. Previous attempts have failed because politically the country is immature, it probably is the case because this is a developing country and still has some way to go”

      “Monarchy that is enthusiastically accepted by its population” means they never had a choice.

      ” Previous attempts have failed because politically the country is immature, it probably is the case because this is a developing country and still has some way to go”

      Why is the country “immature?” Why is Morocco still a “developing country” and in which way is it developing? And why has it got such a long way to go and where to?

      ” people in Iraq and in Afghanistan unhappy simply because there is no stability”-

      whose fault is that? was there stability under Saddam Hussein or under the Taliban? does anyone really believe that democracy and sharia are compatible? NEVER! You have either sharia or you have democracy. The vote of a largely illiterate population means nothing.

      “western liberal democracy will certainly fail”- no it won’t. But it cannot be established under sharia.

      “Afghanistan it is probably going to have to accept ultra-conservative Islam and Tribal values or it will fail.”

      Afghanistan failed long ago. All Mohammedan nations are bismal failures and would collapse without the jiziya from the West. Or how do you think they would sustain themselves? by raiding the infidels and taking booty?

      What else is new?

  29. “See Solkhar, The rule of argument is to answer questions, The only rule to avoid questions is to discredit the person asking. This is the oldest trick in the book.”

    Speak to the blog-owner, the master of avoidance and twist.

    I will not anwer your questions because you have approached the subject in an antagonistic and inflexible mannor which means answers need to follow your logic only.

    You have also used a great deal of collective arguments – Muslims this and Muslims that which is totally unrealistic. The realism is that there are many views, many types and no single entity or identity of a Muslim.

    I am what is called a Sinast, but then after 11yrs you should know what that means. But as I have my doubts, I will explain. Following the style and value system that Ibn Sina set, that is the Qur’an is God’s words and not tainted by man, but the haddiths are the words of man and with all the best of intentions, are tainted. Thus the haddiths are to be valued with that taint in mind and “may” represent accurate discriptions, quotes and claims, but many do not.

    Now a Qur’an-Only or Sinast is not the most common or popular belief structure but it is a growing community and mostly held by academics. It is also assumed that most moderate Muslims in the west are also by nature Sinasts because they will have full faith in the Qur’an but have a great deal of doubts in the haddiths.

    The other point that I would make is that the Qur’an which you have questioned so vigerously, is something if studied with the haddiths out of the picture is in fact more understandable. None of the radical conservative “hogwash” is added in and it is taken as being Divine but also viewed in the 7th century contexts. Thus, the western right-wing argument that the Surahs that mention war and violence are simply examples of battles and instructions but at the same time there are things to be learnt and instructions in them. The same Surahs that discuss these battles then goes on to say how to deal with victory and also that “God loveth not the aggressor” and “God loveth not the oppressor” which is very clear and unambigious.

    I stand by my faith and believe in the divinity of Qur’an, the reverence in the Prophet Mohammed and I am a strong believer in the fact that History is a no -rills non-BS one.

    It should also be said that unlike the propoganda pushed on this blog, there is no real or Islamically sanctioned “Jihad” and has not been one since the Crusades. The actions of armies, tyrrants, generals were like all the others from all the other communities, nations and faiths – the simple historical act of man, and as all “men” do, they will claim God is on their side, and as is proven now, hey are still doing that themselves. The difference now is that there is the internet and other global-media and thus each and every agenda-based group, religous group, political agenda groups have access to push their stuff.

    The existance of militant islamists, radicalism with violence is a reality and a danger to us all, there is no doubt or denying this, but it needs to be dealt with as for what it is, and not become a pawn, excuse or hijacked by other radical agendas.

  30. * To give the best and most simple example, Morocco has a Monarchy that is enthusiastically accepted by its population.

    Does that population include the Saharawis of the Western Sahara,
    Solkhar? Apparently they are also slaves of allah and the false prophet, but object to being annexed by Morocco. (YMMV)

    [Australia Western Sahara Association (AWSA) is an incorporated non-profit Association which was set up to raise awareness and promote the Saharawi cause in Australia, and to campaign for a free and fair referendum on self-determination for the Saharawi people.

    The independence struggle in Western Sahara mirrors almost exactly that of the East Timorese. In 1975 when the colonial power Spain withdrew, the neighbouring country, Morocco, invaded. A war ensued until a UN sponsored ceasefire was declared in 1991 when a referendum was promised. Despite UN pressure Morocco refuses to agree to a referendum. ]

    Personally I don’t really care whether allah’s slaves are annexed or
    not – the important thing is to free them from bondage to allah and
    his false prophet. Something you apparently seek to prevent from happening,

  31. “Monarchy that is enthusiastically accepted by its population” means they never had a choice.

    No, incorrect. That is something that can easily be monitored and shown, in history or the present. Were are the uprisings, blog-owner? Were is the hungry international press clamming over the dislike for the Monarchy – because it is not there.

    Why is the country “immature?” Why is Morocco still a “developing country” and in which way is it developing? And why has it got such a long way to go and where to?

    This comes down to the really stupid argument that blatant and non-serious blogers like this one come up with and is laughable. So the assumption from this question is that because it is an Islamic nation, thus it is poor and suffering. It is Islam that is keeping it down. Thus we can also asume that the developing world is only Muslim and thus all the non-Muslim developing countries are doing way better – when they are not.

    It is in fact an agenda driven denial of history and reality. Life in developing countries are very hard and it is not as if the developing world will sacrifice its own comfort to bring equilibriam. The thousands of factors are there and to play this agenda game of attempting to single out Muslim nations is simply arrogant disrespect to the realities of poverty and economic struggle
    .
    ” people in Iraq and in Afghanistan unhappy simply because there is no stability”-

    “You have either sharia or you have democracy. The vote of a largely illiterate population means nothing.”

    Here we go, the blinkered view of a would-be expert who is all but that. I have just explained that I do not support Shari’a and I do not support liberal western democracy if it is not correct, but he will still go on….. and on, and on – until the West Bank is ethnically cleansed.

    Note, he does not dispute that.

    1. Blah blah blather, Solk.

      You keep repeating the same smears and drivel and you refuse to answer questions, what does that tell us about you?

      Islam believes in the rule of Islam, Caliphate to the Sunnis and Imamate to the Shi’as. Hence, to Muslims, all other forms of government represent the handiwork of the Satan and the infidels. Therefore, one and all non-Islamic systems of government must be purified by the Islamic fire.

      You just confirmed that.

      Islam is and has always been political, in the form of Imamate, Caliphate or by proxy where Islam, through religious divines, controlled the state. Saudi Arabia, for instance, does not even have a constitution. The Quran is the constitution. The country has a king. Yet, the king is the supreme enforcer of the laws dictated by Islam.

      Islam is so radical that even the term “radical” does not adequately depict its true character. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, behaved in extreme ways whenever he could. Your king of Morocco is said to have a direct lineage to the meshugga prophet and is thus seen as a legitimate ruler. Cool. No issue here.

      But what goes on in his jails?

    2. “until the West Bank is ethnically cleansed”- which bank? Never heard of it.

      I bank with others.

      Could it be that you’re referring to Arab occupied Judea and Samaria?

  32. * I stand by my faith and believe in the divinity of Qur’an, the reverence in the Prophet Mohammed

    You are doomed, because your “prophet” is a blasphemer and fake,
    like you.

    “False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, those whom God has chosen.” (Gospel of Mark 13:22)

    Change your mind, Solkhar – time for islam is running out.

  33. The resident evangalist and prosthelitzer desperately looks up Morocco on the internet and then without knowledge on the subject declares that he is now an expert and knowledgable on the subject.

    Thus he reads from a group of Saharawis liviing in Australia, whom have no relationship with that country and perhaps were born actually in Algeria or Mauretania.

    The taking over of the former Western Sahara was in fact an easy process, the population were in fact happy and they are the most invested part of the country. The politics of the region at that time determined what happened, the conflict with Algeria gave that country the excuse to put their own Saharans into the region to make problems, the Spanish and French governments wanting to have a “diplomatic edge” over Morocco decided not to recognize it and thus you have the stalemate until this day. The now defunct Polisario was lead by a man born and bread in Marrakech, not in the Sahara and his marxist background ensured his unpopularity and thus his need to be a popularist leader. The man is now living in Rabat and has regular lunch with the Prime Minister because the issue is over in all but the minds of the Algerians and a few countries that like to have the power over others. There is still a camp in southern Algeria called Tindouf and many Moroccan soldiers remain there as prisoners.

    Not that the evangalist cares, he obviously has a failing level of faith and is absolutely riled by the fact simple fact that there are people whom faithfully believe in Jesus but reject his cruxifiction and view the claim of His being the son of God as rediculous. He also is unable to sleep at night because most of the world’s Christians accept that the God of Islam that is called in Arabic “Allah” is the same God of Christians and Jews. To fix his vexation, he needs to devote himself to searching out on me and Morocco instead of getting on with life.

    At least he thinks my English is very good, I am so chuffed and happy over that!

  34. [I will not anwer your questions because you have approached the subject in an antagonistic and inflexible mannor which means answers need to follow your logic only.]

    Thank you. We will discuss this when you are ready.

    Don’t get me wrong. I am not antagonizing or anything of the similar nature. In a question, theres always a objective in getting an answer. You have never establish any facts that contradict what I said as well.

    If the facts are facts, logic has nothing to do with it. Unless you are not sure, its best not to answer, I wouldn’t want you to make a fool of yourself.

    Its good that you believe in what you believe & thats fine, but never again attack a man’s credibility. It seriously makes me take you lightly.

    Again Solkhar, UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION.

    I never question the Quran, To me, the Quran is a message from god delivered by its prophets. Quran was never a book, never pages, or writings, nothing of that nature. Im sure you & I can agree to that.

    What I find is the lack on understanding of transferring the Quran as the message to the Book among muslims.

    It was the muslims that compiled it & it was other muslims that obejcted it as well. It was a process that went through.

    One more thing, I treat you with respect But you treat me like dirt in a debate. Why?

    Besides, You claimed that the blog owner is such a demonic nature while you have demonstrated what you just accused. The blog owner has his views & I can argue with him on many issues. But the Blog Owner was still generous to let you have a say in his blog despite your short comings.

    If you go to someones house, You behave. Thats the least of the courtesy & the first thing I learnt while staying in Marrakesh. I think you are old enough to understand this.

  35. tjwork, if I am confusing you with and thus treating you as being the same agenda-based BS as others – and it is unjust – then accept my apology, I admit to mistakes unlike others here.

    My own studies, research and knowledge comes down to this about the Qur’an. It was given orally in front of a number of professonal reciters. There was almost no scribes in that part of the world and the practice was by far a proper and effective methods, these reciters are renowned and in groups are basically perfect.

    After the death of Mohammed, the reciters were tasked with having this put down into writing, again as a group to ensure accuracy and with the constant presence of many people to ensure no forced change.

    On the 19th year after the death of Mohammed the then Caliphe, Othman took control of the first full copy of the Qur’an. He ensured that multiple copies were made to guarentee no changes. I have seen one of these “originals” in the Topkapi Palace museum in Istanbul along with many other relics and artifacts.

    It is on this basis alone that I accept the originality and untainted nature of the Qur’an.

    Again, if I have unjustly put you into the group of BS hate-mongers, please excuse me and blame it on confussion.

    As for the comment about being polite in someone’s house, they say here in the South of Morocco that “hospitality does not mean spit on the guest” – talk to the blog-owner.

  36. Dear Solkhar,

    Thank you, I believe our next discussions would be addressed properly.

    Im fully aware of that part of the history & many muslims are in the same line of understanding, However, I must beg to only question certain events during that crucial period, thats all, Perhaps not this thread, but later.

    In my understanding, sincerely, originality is based from the source & only the source, & to claim something means to be steadfast against questions. Believe me, millions are looking for answers, including myself. All we need to know is If this was the case, they need to believe & believe comes from a process of thoughts that are answered by doubts.

    And what more simpler way to get this answer rather than reading & asking questions. My delicate logic is to question & get the truth. I just want to be clear.

    Wouldn’t you agree that If these crucial questions were answered or addressed with actions positively, the world would probably united with a single race & religion?

    Anyway, We will take this in a different discussion.

  37. [All we need to know is If this was the case, they need to believe & believe comes from a process of thoughts that are answered by doubts.]

    To:

    All we need to know is If this was the case, they need to believe & believe comes from a process of thoughts that are answered by eliminating doubts (either by faith or by logical process)

  38. tjwork,

    there is a time when some things come down to faith, that is why it is called such. I think that logical debate alway results in progress, that is why in Islamic terms I am called a liberal-moderate or “progressive” though that last term has unfortunately in the conservative Muslim world negative meanings and is a “used and abused word”.

    interesting though, I do not agree that logical solid debate would result in one universal religion, because I honestly think that human nature has to many faces and ideas and thus points of view and matters of “faith” will always reflect that. i am not being pesimistic, I just think that is human nature.

  39. blog-owner, your constant references to the historic but no-longer existing Judea and Samaria is basic confirmation of your political/religous goal and reason for this blog. Enough said, your postings and the blog itself is truelly tainted.

  40. Okay-I have a solution. If anyone agrees that you can kill your family, neighbors, friends, coworkers, and strangers because they don’t agree with your belief systems, and likewise you yourself can be killed, then get the hell out of America. Now, everyone else sit back and count all the people who actually leave. The fact is, this family and SO many others came to America because it’s better than wherever they came from. Maybe medical reasons, maybe employment or family reasons, or the old (and still very relevant) FREEDOM reason. So regardless of which religion came up with this and why, we should all get a grip. If this girl may (and note I said “may”) die if they send her back to her family, THEN DON’T SEND HER BACK. Are we as a country so afraid of possibly offending a group of people that we ignore things like this to avoid stepping on toes? How’s it gonna look if they send her back, and she dies? Which is more important people, hurting each other’s feelings or letting this girl die because we’d feel more comfortable looking the other way?

  41. DEATH to all infidels, heathensm barbarians, Crysaders, USofA Marines, Islamists, fundamentalists, Christians, buddhists, and all other semitics peoples who would oppose the one true God– Allah!! allahu akhbar!!
    KILL allwhite people, Obamanians, lettofcenterites, rightists, leftists,etc… allhua ahkbar!!
    May the curse of Rafsanjani the Obese be ever upon your heads and your entire household, even unto your great grandchildren and may the fetid fornicating crosseyed jackals crossbreed with the festulent virulent copulating hyenas of the Eastern desert and bear your offspring!! allahu ahkbar!!

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