Can We Ban Islam?

by sheikyermami on December 23, 2009

Legal Guidelines for the Criminalization of Islam in the United States

Sultan Knish makes some important points: 1) if we can’t ban religion we can still prosecute illegal activities stemming from it, and 2) we can outlaw organizations that prefer sharia to the Constitution. More from the Gates of Vienna

A  great article from Sultan Knish

Geert Wilders’ recent call at a Palm Beach synagogue to ban Islam has stirred up all sorts of controversy, with more “moderate” blogs speaking out in opposition to it. So let’s take a closer look at the issue of banning Islam.

Banning Islam is more difficult in the United States than in Europe, because of the First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

On the surface of it this is a fairly straightforward formulation barring the legislative branch from taking any action to create a state religion or barring the practice of any religion.

The founders were English citizens and well aware of the way in which religion could stoke political violence. In the late 18th century, Cromwell was not ancient history, neither were the Covenanters or the Gunpowder Plot. While they did not anticipate like the rise of an Islamic insurgency in America, they understood quite well that religion and violence could and would intersect.

That of course was one of the reasons for barring a State Church, to avoid giving the government control over religion, a situation that had resulted in much of the religious violence in England. By giving religion independence, but not political power, the First Amendment sought to avoid a repeat of the same ugliness that had marked centuries of wars in Europe.

That of course is a key point. The separation of church and state was meant to protect the integrity of both, and avoid power struggles between religious groups. There was to be no state religion, the government could not leverage religious authority and religious factions could not begin civil wars in a struggle to gain power or autonomy. For the most part it worked.

Until now the only real acid test for this approach involved the Mormon Church, an ugly history on both sides that has mostly been buried under the weight of time. More recently Scientology flared up as a cult turned church that demanded its own autonomy and did its best to make war on the government and its critics.

And then there is Islam. The first problem with using the First Amendment in defense of Islam– is that its goal is to violate the First Amendment. Islam’s widely stated goal is to become a State Religion, around the world and in America as well.

Sharia has been making steady advances in Africa and parts of Asia. Majorities of Muslims in the UK have said that they want Sharia law, and leading British figures such as the Archbishop of Canterbury have supported the introduction of Islamic law into the British legal system. Domestic advocates for Sharia, such as Noah Feldman, are pushing for the normalization of Sharia law in the United States as well.

This would in effect turn Islam into an Established Religion in the United States, itself a violation of the First Amendment.

Furthermore Islam abridges the remaining portions of the First Amendment, which protect Freedom of Speech and the Press. Islam rejects both of these. To protect Islamic rights therefore means depriving non-Muslims of freedom of religion— and both Muslims and non-Muslims of freedom of speech and the press.

These are not hypothetical scenarios, the Mohammed cartoon controversy has demonstrated exactly how this will work. So did the persecution of Salman Rushdie. To accept Islam is to reject freedom of speech and religion… in the same way that accepting Communism meant rejecting freedom of speech and religion. Islam and the Constitution of the United States are incompatible in the same way that Communism and the Constitution are incompatible.

The Founders sought to protect religious freedoms, at no point in time did they seek to protect religious terrorism. And Supreme Courts throughout American history have found that the First Amendment does not provide license for significant lawbreaking. That is why polygamy is not legal in the United States.

Having to choose between religious freedom and the rights and dignity of women and children– America correctly chose the latter.

In 1785, James Madison, Father of the Constitution, wrote, “We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth that religion or the duty which we owe our Creator and the manner of discharging it can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.”

Yet Islamic history and recent events in Eurabia demonstrate that Islam does indeed spread by force and violence. Upholding the right of Islam to force its statues and views on Americans, violates Madison’s fundamental and undeniable truth.

In 1802, Jefferson wrote his explanation for the First Amendment to the Danbury Baptist Association;

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, and that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that the legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

There is a key phrase in this statement, which is that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions. This statement was used as a legal principle by the Supreme Court in 1878 in the case of Reynolds vs the United States. Reynolds had been charged with bigamy and claimed that his faith required him to engage in polygamy.

The Court found that while Reynolds had the right to believe that polygamy was his duty, he did not have the right to practice it– thus upholding Jefferson’s distinction between action and belief.

As the court put it;

In our opinion, the statute immediately under consideration is within the legislative power of Congress. It is constitutional and valid as prescribing a rule of action for all those residing in the Territories, and in places over which the United States have exclusive control. This being so, the only question which remains is, whether those who make polygamy a part of their religion are excepted from the operation of the statute. If they are, then those who do not make polygamy a part of their religious belief may be found guilty and punished, while those who do, must be acquitted and go free. This would be introducing a new element into criminal law

Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?

So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? [98 U.S. 145, 167] To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.

The outcome then was that we could not have a situation in which crimes could be committed in the name of religion and protected by the First Amendment. Belief could not be criminalized, but practice could be.

But what does that actually mean and how exactly do we distinguish between action and practice? Does it merely mean that it is legal to believe in seizing America in the name of Islam, but not to practice it.

We can begin by pointing out that any number of Islamic practices which violate American law or promote an unhealthy social consequence can be banned, for much the same reason that polygamy was. In Reynolds vs the United States, the Court upheld the right of the Utah legislature to brand the spread of polygamy as a threat to innocent women and children, that had to be arrested through strong measures. The spread of Islam’s practices can be seen in the same way.

France has treated the Hijab in a similar way. The United States can too, if it finds any abuse or violence associated with its enforcement or use. Honor killings over the Hijab demonstrate that this is the case. State Legislatures can then move to ban the Hijab.

Thus while we cannot charge someone with believing in Islam, we can stamp out many Islamic practices that are dangerous or abusive. The First Amendment does not protect religious practices that are illegal or made illegal, it protects only the beliefs themselves.

And we can go much further at an organizational level, based on the Sedition Act of 1918 and the 1954 Communist Control Act , which give us some guidelines for cracking down on Islam.

Sec. 2. The Congress hereby finds and declares that the Communist Party of the United States, although purportedly a political party, is in fact an instrumentality of a conspiracy to overthrow the Government of the United States. It constitutes an authoritarian dictatorship within a republic, demanding for itself the rights and privileges accorded to political parties, but denying to all others the liberties guaranteed by the Constitution. Unlike political parties, which evolve their policies and programs through public means, by the reconciliation of a wide variety of individual views, and submit those policies and programs to the electorate at large for approval or disapproval, the policies and programs of the Communist Party are secretly prescribed for it by the foreign leaders of the world Communist movement. Its members have no part in determining its goals, and are not permitted to voice dissent to party objectives

This applies to Islam just as much as it applies to Communism. And this preamble was part of a passage demonstrating the fundamental distinction between Communism and legitimate political parties.

The assumption of the Communist Control Act was that the First Amendment did not apply to the Communist party or to Communist controlled parties… because they did not fit the democratic template of the First Amendment. As such the Communist party was not a legitimate party, but an overseas directed conspiracy to overthrow the United States and replace it with a Communist system.

Not only can this same argument also apply to Islamic organizations such as CAIR, but Islam can be distinguished from other religions on similar grounds. The following phrase from the original document represents the key point here;

It constitutes an authoritarian dictatorship within a republic, demanding for itself the rights and privileges accorded to political parties, but denying to all others the liberties guaranteed by the Constitution.

And that is the core of the problem. While we cannot criminalize individual beliefs alone, we can criminalize organizations dedicated to overthrowing the United States and replacing it with a totalitarian system. An organization is not merely “belief”, it also represents an attempt to put those beliefs into practice.

The Internal Security Act of 1950, along with the 1954 Communist Control Act provides extensive legal grounds for criminalizing organizations dedicated to the overthrow of the United States, as well as membership in such organizations– and even provides for the removal of citizenship from members of such organizations.

While succeeding courts have thrown out many portions of these laws, had the United States truly gotten serious about the War on Terror, it could have passed a real Patriot Act that would have clamped down on Islamist organizations in a similar way.

The bill could have easily retrofitted some of the language of the Communist Control Act as follows;

Sec. 3. Islamic organizations, regardless of their assumed name, whose object or purpose is to overthrow the Government of the United States, or the government of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein by force and violence, are not entitled to any of the rights, privileges, and immunities attendant upon legal bodies created under the jurisdiction of the laws of the United States or any political subdivision thereof; and whatever rights, privileges, and immunities which have heretofore been granted to said party or any subsidiary organization by reason of the laws of the United States or any political subdivision thereof, are hereby terminated:

Sec. 4. Whoever knowingly and willfully becomes or remains a member of such organizations, or (2) any other organization having for one of its purposes or objectives the establishment, control conduct, seizure, or overthrow of the Government of the United States, or the government of any State or political subdivision thereof, by the use of force or violence, with knowledge of the purpose or objective of such organization shall be subject to all the provisions and penalties of the Internal Security Act of 1950

The question then becomes one of defining what exactly an Islamist organization is. If we define Islamist under the same guidelines as Communist, but specifically modified as representing a belief in the overthrow or takeover of the United States or any part of it, thereby placing the United States under Islamic law… we already have a very broad net to work with.

Or to simply quote the Internal Security Act again

Sec. 4. (a) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to combine, conspire, or agree, with any other person to perform any act which would substantially contribute to the establishment within the United States of a totalitarian dictatorship

Since Islam represents a totalitarian dictatorship, any organization or individual seeking to establish Islamic Law or Sharia within the United States, can be held liable and charged over its violation. This would apply to both Muslims and non-Muslims.

And the Koran or Quran itself represents a volume whose contents implicitly call for the violent overthrow of the United States.

Consider Chapter 9 of the Koran, which governs the interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Particularly Sura 9:29

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

There are numerous other verses in the Koran which similarly call for Muslims to subjugate non-Muslims and take power. This parallels the charge against the Communist party and places Muslims who believe in the Koran on the same level as Communists who believed in the overthrow of the United States.

Participation in any Muslim organization therefore becomes the equivalent of participating in a Communist organization– and can be banned.

So back to the original question, can we ban Islam? While we cannot ban an individual from personally believing in Islam, we can ban Islamic practices and organizations– which would effectively ban any practice of Islam in an organized way.

While the First Amendment does not permit a ban on any specific religion, this is limited to religious belief, not religious practice. And the laws enacted against Communism in the 1950′s demonstrate that organizations aimed at the overthrow of the United States can be banned and membership in them can even be criminalized.

Thus we can be Islam from the public sphere, ban Muslim organizations as criminal organizations, criminalize Muslim practices and even denaturalize and deport Muslims who are United States citizens. The legal infrastructure is there. Despite the fact that the United States is far more protective of political and religious rights, within a decade every single Muslim organization, from the national to the mosque level, can be shut down… and the majority of professing Muslims can be deported from the United States regardless of whether they are citizens or not.

We can do it. Whether we could or will do it is another matter. It would require rolling back a number of Supreme Court decisions that are a legacy of the corrupted Warren Court. But it was possible post 9/11. It may yet become possible again.

Join the discussion...

Too small? Click here This is a satirical website. None of what you read here has anything to do with Islam, because Islam is a Religion of Peace. Everybody knows that good Muslims never do the things they do, (because Allah does it for them, Quran 8:12) and we know that only our misperceptions, ignorance and stereotyping of Islam makes Muslims chop off heads, kill and rape women and children, bomb subways, buses, nightclubs and fly jets into buildings. If it wasn't for the media and da Jooozzz, we wouldn't even know its happening. We welcome open, honest, thoughtful, and vigorous discussion in the comments threads, so do yourself a favour and don't accuse us of being 'haters' because we are loving, tolerant people. Don't curse us, don't threaten us with death or hellfire, and don't accuse us of being "just like the terrorists" because we don't do to Muslims what they do to us or to themselves. Yes, we know that only idiots oppose Islam and sensible people submit, but  you should know that we are ignorant bigots, hypocrites and Islamophobes, and we prefer to remain that way... But since you are forcing yourselves (and your abhorrent belief-system on us) we will defend ourselves, because we must. Avoid tu quoque and ad hominem attacks. Don't bother with circular reasoning either, we been there, done it.  If you annoy us, you will be banned and your posts summarily deleted. Try to add to the discussion, don't try to sell snake oil, don't try to cover us with Islamic shrouds of kitman and taqiyya, don't bother with da'awa, (we've heard it before) don't spam us with long pieces of cut & paste, write in English, try to tell the truth, (we know that's hard for you because you are all pathological liars) but the truth will set you free, try it! One more thing: don't think you can post here under multiple monikers. You will quickly be disappeared! The same goes for trufers and conspiracy kooks: you get one chance, one time. Blow it out of your ass if you must; put your stupidity on display. But you won't be back, trust me on that. Take a deep breath before you post, try to make some sense, do not just vent, do not make a fool of yourself and if you prove us wrong you can earn 10 Islamic dollars for your piggy bank. Deal?

{ 14 comments… read them below or add one }

Dajjal December 24, 2009 at 12:30 am

The founders made a fatal blunder: they assumed that Islam is a religion, an equally valid path to God. In fact it is a war machine which cloaks itself in the veil of religion which motivates its troops and shields it from accurate identification.

The solution is simple: correct the error by eliminating the assumption. Amend the Constitution to recognize the fact that Islam is a war cult, not a religion.

Pedestrian Infidel’s proposed Amendment 28 is a good start. The Outlaw Islam! petition is one way to publicize the cause. Copy it and paste it into an email, exhorting the recipients to sign the petition and forward the email.

An international solution is necessary in the long run. ICCPR, ICERD & CPPCG provide the chopping block, we just need a good blade. Those international human rights covenants have provisions which require the legal proscription of organizations based on supremacism or which incite violence. Islam is a standing violation of those covenants and must be proscribed. The International Qur’an Petition and its supporting evidence would bring this fact to the attention of the World Court. Lets make it go viral!!! You can find links to the petitions on my web site.

Dhumme Dhimmi December 24, 2009 at 1:56 am

Dajjal, I could not have written it better myself and would have suggested this earlier, except I do not have a knowledge of International, U.S. or U.N. Laws. Please keep us informed.

I am signing.

An Infidel December 24, 2009 at 5:19 am

It won’t take long before we begin to see the reversal of Islams attempted jack boot and sandal style march through civilised countries. At the very heart of these people is an inbuilt cowardice, when push comes to shove they will melt like a snowflake in the tropics.

Historyscoper December 24, 2009 at 2:05 pm

The Founding Fathers of the U.S. lived in a time when knowledge of Islam was very limited. Thomas Jefferson had a copy of a translated Koran in his library, showing he tried to study it, but he also had Edward Gibbon’s works that touted the virtues of Islam and Muhammad. Today we have the full power of the Internet to educate us, so we should be smarter than them and take up where they left off with armor-plating the legal system against an Islamic takeover. Where can you start studying Islam and its horrible history free online? Click the url and get started.

R_not December 24, 2009 at 5:07 pm

Well, I hate to put a squash on a good idea but seriously – look at who we have in Congress and as president. Do you think these people would dare do something such as this? These people don’t read the bills their socialist and muslim benefactors are pushing them to pass now. Do you think they would do something as hard as changing an amendment in our Constitution?

We have a bunch of morons in Congress and the biggest one sits in the oval office. And the morons who put these guys and gals into office sit at home watching the lamestream media and go to our left wing idiot schools all like buzzed out, brainwashed robots spouting the same mantras on a daily basis… ‘Bush lied, people died’ (and they still spout that one), ‘We inherited a bad economy’ (trying to say Bush did it while it was several Democrats in Congress who laid this turd on us), blah blah blah…

I just don’t see anything happening other than them worrying about who they will invite to their next Ramadan dinner party, or what Muslim Brotherhood front group’s behind they will kiss and whose members let crash their dinner party and then look at the security agencies we have as the bad guys.

When our voting public starts getting serious about what we have in Congress and in the Oval office then something will get done. Until then we will continue to see such ilk as Obama and Ellison, Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, etc all being voted back into office time and again.

jdamn December 24, 2009 at 5:42 pm

That’s my Oriana !

Islam is an inimical political system. We can ban it, but stupid dhimmis, including Robert Spencer, need to stop calling it a religion. It isn’t one. It’s purely political. Start from there.

Robert Laity December 25, 2009 at 7:58 am

jdamn, YOU are right. Islam is NOT a “religion” and is therefore NOT protected under the first amendment:
http://www.nmatv.com/video/618/What-Islam-Is-Not

HRW December 25, 2009 at 2:16 pm

First, let me wish you all a very Merry Christmas !
On topic . . .quoting a brief statement within a statement made above:

“. . .in the same way that accepting Communism meant rejecting freedom of speech and religion . . .”

Dr. Andrew Bostom, a brilliant scholar who relentlessly examines and discusses this topic, recently posted a very relevant article to this statement (do explore the entire piece):

From Communism as “The 20th Century Islam,” to “Islam as the 21st Century Communism?”

…There is a resemblance between the use made of Marxism by the present masters of the totalitarian world and the conversion of nomadic barbarians…such as the Turkish mercenaries Mahmud of Ghazna [Ghazni; modern Afghanistan], [and the Turcomen of Asia Minor] Togrul Beg, and Alp Arslan to the universal religion[s] of the civilization[s] they threatened, namely…Islam…Like Stalin’s Marxism, their conversion gave them the pretext for disrupting civilization from within [emphasis in original]; as converst they were able to attack in the name of the true Faith the very societies which had brought the Faith to them. In the same way the Marxist chiefs of totalitarian Russia attack Western society from within, attempting to destroy the social structure of European countries for the sake of the socialism to which these countries themselves gave birth.”

[pp. 18-20]: “Communism takes the field both as a secular religion [emphasis in original] and as a universal State [emphasis in original]; it is therefore…comparable to Islam…Soviet Russia (to use the name it gives itself, although it is a misdescription of the regime) is not the first empire in which the temporal and public power goes hand in hand with a shadowy power which works outside the imperial frontiers to undermine the social structure of neighboring States. The Islamic East affords several examples of a like duality and duplicity. The Egyptian Fatimids, and later the Persian Safavids, were the animators and propagators, from the heart of their own States, of an active and organizing legend, an historical myth, calculated to make fanatics and obtain their total devotion, designed to create in neighboring States an underworld of ruthless gangsters. The eponymous ancestor of the Safavids was a saint from whom they magically derived the religious authority in whose name they operated. They were Shi’is of Arabian origin, and the militant order they founded was dedicated to propaganda and ‘nucleation’ throughout the whole of Persia and Asia Minor. It recruited ‘militants’ and ‘adherents’ and ‘sympathizers’. These were the Sufis. [emphasis added] As rulers, their sympathies were recognized by other sovereigns in the same way that Stalin, head of the State, is recognized by other heads of States, and rightly, as the leader of world communism. This merging of religion and politics was a major characteristic of the Islamic world in its victorious period. It allowed the head of a State to operate beyond his own frontiers in the capacity of the commander of the faithful (Amir-al-muminin); and in this way a Caliph was able to count upon docile instruments, or captive souls, wherever there were men who recognized his authority. The territorial frontiers which seemed to remove some of his subjects from his jurisdiction were nothing more than material obstacles; armed force might compel him to feign respect for the frontier, but propaganda and subterranean warfare could continue no less actively beyond it.

Religions of this kind acknowledge no frontiers. Soviet Russia is merely the geographical center from which communist influence radiates; it is an ‘Islam’ on the march, and it regards its frontiers at any given moment as purely provisional and temporary. Communism, like victorious Islam, makes no distinction between politics and religion…To an educated European or American, unless he is himself a communist, it appears that communists are religious fanatics in the service of an expansionist empire which is striving for world dominion. But communists see it differently: for them communism is what ought to be, and the whole of history, the whole past of humanity, takes its meaning from this future event…Communism is a faith, and it has in Russia a sort of fatherland; but such a fatherland cannot be a country like any other. Russia is to communism what the Abbasid empire was to Islam. Communism…is a religious sect of world conquerors for whom Russia is simply the strongpoint from which the attack is launched.”

kaw December 25, 2009 at 4:57 pm

To quote someone in an ill-deserved position: “Yes WE CAN”

kaw December 25, 2009 at 5:00 pm

HRW
I agree with your post from A.Boston – but to me this has been clear for some time. We need to instigate campaigns to shown the truth of islam – and this is something we can all work towards.

Taylor January 30, 2010 at 2:53 am

I 100% agree with this. Islam claims to be a religion of peace. But was spread by the sword by ITS FOUNDERS. People say that Christianity was spread by the sword in the Crusades, but the warriors of the Crusades were not its founders. Jesus preached peace and love. Muhammed himself was a rapist, murderer, and deceiver. He took over nations and enforced Islam on them. I don’t need to convince anyone, just look at 9/11, or the tens of thousands of Muslims claiming “for Allah!” as they recite “death to the Unites States”.

Alright. I have 2 videos from YouTube that I found, of an ex-militant from the Middle East. He used to be a Muslim and is now a Christian. In the videos he speaks of all the hidden horrors of Islam. These videos are VERY important, and I believe that ALL of America needs to see them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPe8NtArqiE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia-3PXbqepI&feature=related

Rossco January 30, 2010 at 4:26 am

Taylor, the WHOLE WORLD needs to see these videos before youtube is forced to remove them.

Martel Sobieskey May 9, 2010 at 10:14 pm

DAJJAL is very insightful and brilliant. He tells us the truthful fact that Islam is not a relgion but rather Islam is a war machine and should not be protected by the constitution. DAJJAL is 100% correct. We need more people like DAJJAL with the courage to tell the truth about Islam. A million thanks to DAJJAL! Pleae see my article linked below in support:
http://www.newmediajournal.us/staff/sobieskey/2009/03192009.htm

Asif May 9, 2010 at 10:51 pm

Try to get them out of amerca asap. I warn or it will end up like england.they are like a cancer they spread fast have between 5 9 kids each to collanize your country faster. They will start off with just a shop and infect the rest of the town from there. turn it in to a slum. get into the police the goverment any were they can gain power to take your country and try to outlaw your culture tradions laws and it won’t reason with you don’t reason with it. parasites that just won’t go away.act qick.

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