Female genital mutilation “is part of the Sunna of the Prophet”

by sheikyer mami on May 31, 2007

Two FGM Updates from MEMRITV. “Egyptian Villagers Explain Why They Circumcise Their Daughters”:

First of all let me make this clear: this is not about circumcision, which, in itself is totally unnecessary and an insult against G-d and the female body. This is about Female Genital Mutilation,  and why it spreads through Islam.

Following are excerpts from a television program about female circumcision in Egypt, which aired on Al-Mihwar TV on May 10, 2007:

Interviewer: In the Islamic religion, and in the villages and neighborhoods, it is always said that girls should be circumcised just like boys. Does it come from the Sunna, or is it a custom or yours?

Female villager: Circumcision is part of the Sunna of the Prophet. We used to bring a daya, and she would circumcise the children, but when the role of the daya was abolished, we stopped. Now we take our children to the doctor, and he circumcises them.

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Interviewer: So it is the doctor who circumcises the girl?

Female villager: Yes. If a girl is not circumcised, she can’t stand it. When she is circumcised, she is calm and has self-restraint. The circumcision protects the girl and makes her calm.

[...]

Interviewer: So you think all women should be circumcised to protect their honor.

Female villager: The Prophet said that the men go and wage Jihad for a year. He said that girls should be circumcised so they can bear it for a whole year until the men return. [...]

And “Al-Azhar Cleric Farahat Sa’id Al-Munji Justifies Female Circumcision: It Replaces the Chastity Belts of Ancient Times”:

Following are excerpts from an interview with Al-Azhar Cleric Farahat Said Al-Munji, which aired on Al-Mihwar TV on May 10, 2007:
Farahat Sa’id Al-Munji: The Prophet said that circumcision is obligatory for men, and is noble for women. This means that for the sake of her honor, a woman can be circumcised. This noble act can be either carried out or not. Moreover, this noble act is subject to restrictions nowadays. I once had a discussion with a gynecologist, who said: “A man brought his daughter to me, and I told him she must be circumcised immediately.” Why? Because he discovered that her clitoris was so big that it was bound to cause her pain or bother her when she reached puberty, and therefore, she had to be circumcised. He told me that other girls came to him, and he said they should not be circumcised. Why? Because their clitoris was normal in size, and did not bother them. It would be crazy to deal with such a clitoris, which does not protrude to an extent that might bother the woman, when it rubs against her clothing and so on…

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A victim of genital mutilation in Somalia: How is she able to endure such pain? [SPIEGEL PHOTO GALLERY]

Guys, all these things appear in Islamic law. Don’t think we are making these things up. It all exists [in religious law] and is determined… We say that if the clitoris is so on and so forth… What am I saying? When the Prophet Muhammad met Umm Salama in Al-Madina – what did he say to her? “Are you still doing what you used to do in Mecca?” In other words, are you still circumcising girls, like you used to do in Mecca? She said: Yes. He said: “Trim it, but don’t cut it off.” According to another version, he said: “Shorten it, but don’t cut it off.” “Trim it” means leaving room for sexual desire. That little bit on top, which looks like the rooster’s crest, is shortened, but just the upper part. She needs to cut off the prepuce, the little bit at the top.

“All Religions” means “Muslims Only”

From Islam Online:

My profession is a gynecologist and during my work I examine women of nearly all religions and nationalities. For few years I worked in Makkah as well as in Kuwait where you could sample women of all religions and I found that only Egyptians, Sudanese, and Ethiopians have this habit of circumcision.

*  Makkah is ‘Muslims Only’- how this nutbag can claim that she could ‘sample women of all religions’ is a mystery.

*****

Update: Warning Graphic Images!

17 January 2009

Clit-Cutting Tradition in Indonesia:

Warning: Graphic Images!

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Female circumcisers and their attendants waiting in an elementary-school classroom, where they do their work

* More Pic’s here

*

By SARA CORBETT/NYT

A Cutting Tradition

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* Looks like the NYT has removed the article. Here’s another link…

When a girl is taken — usually by her mother — to a free circumcision event held each spring in Bandung, Indonesia, she is handed over to a small group of women who, swiftly and yet with apparent affection, cut off a small piece of her genitals. Sponsored by the Assalaam Foundation, an Islamic educational and social-services organization, circumcisions take place in a prayer center or an emptied-out elementary-school classroom where desks are pushed together and covered with sheets and a pillow to serve as makeshift beds. The procedure takes several minutes. There is little blood involved. Afterward, the girl’s genital area is swabbed with the antiseptic Betadine. She is then helped back into her underwear and returned to a waiting area, where she’s given a small, celebratory gift — some fruit or a donated piece of clothing — and offered a cup of milk for refreshment. She has now joined a quiet majority in Indonesia, where, according to a 2003 study by the Population Council, an international research group, 96 percent of families surveyed reported that their daughters had undergone some form of circumcision by the time they reached 14.

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Tears are wiped from the face of a 9-month-old following her circumcision.

*

These photos were taken in April 2006, at the foundation’s annual mass circumcision, which is free and open to the public held during the lunar month marking the birth of the prophet Muhammad. The Assalaam Foundation runs several schools and a mosque in Bandung, Indonesia’s third-largest city and the capital of West Java. The photographer Stephanie Sinclair was taken to the circumcision event by a reproductive-health observer from Jakarta and allowed to spend several hours there. Over the course of that Sunday morning, more than 200 girls were circumcised, many of them appearing to be under the age of 5. Meanwhile, in a nearby building, more than 100 boys underwent a traditional circumcision as well.

According to Lukman Hakim, the foundation’s chairman of social services, there are three “benefits” to circumcising girls.

“One, it will stabilize her libido,” he said through an interpreter. “Two, it will make a woman look more beautiful in the eyes of her husband. And three, it will balance her psychology.”

Female genital cutting — commonly identified among international human rights groups as female genital mutilation — has been outlawed in 15 African countries. Many industrialized countries also have similar laws. Both France and the U.S. have prosecuted immigrant residents for performing female circumcisions.

In Indonesia, home to the world’s largest Muslim population, a debate over whether to ban female circumcision is in its early stages. The Ministry of Health has issued a decree forbidding medical personnel to practice it, but the decree which has yet to be backed by legislation does not affect traditional circumcisers and birth attendants, who are thought to do most female circumcisions. Many agree that a full ban is unlikely without strong support from the country’s religious leaders. According to the Population Council study, many Indonesians view circumcision for boys and girls as a religious duty.

* But of course: none of this has anything to do with Islam, right?

* Read it all

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Update:

Warning: What follows now is very graphic:

Clitoridectomy; Wikipedia; The Age and Islam PDF Print E-mail

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Written by Circe
Friday, 18 July 2008
Warning: Very graphic and disturbing content!
Surprise, surprise the Age (9/7/08) does its usual article concentrating on ‘female circumcision’, particularly the most horrific variety with the ‘gosh isn’t it shocking but it’s nothing to do with Islam’….  The reality that Islamic text/laws make clitoridectomy mandatory or regard it as sunnah (supported by Mohammad) or at least a worthy practise is completely ignored.  Also ignored are the many hadiths (which dictate day-to-day life) that support the practise.
No-one claimed Islam invented clitoridectomy – the Arabs practiced it at the time of Mohammad ..but to deny that it was taken up by Islam, is promoted by Islamic religious leaders, is mostly practised by Muslims and has spread around the world with Islam just shows the power of Islam in stopping people (including UN groups) from telling the obvious truth – in the case of Islam, there IS a religious base to the practice!!!  Note: May 2008 the Egyptian parliament seemed to have dropped laws making female genital mutilation illlegal in Egypt (other laws re increasing marriageable age and reporting families who beat their children were also over-ruled) (reference), though more recent reports claim clitoridectomy has been criminalised with trivial maximum sentences of up to 2 years jail and $1000 fine –AND it’s allowed in cases of ‘medical necessity!!! Conservatives maintain that Islam condones the removal of a girl’s clitoris to tame her sexual desires and condemn the amendment as a western import. (reference)
In a recent study in Yemen, of the 39 clerics who participated, 72 percent wanted the practice to continue for reasons of religious mandate, virginity and tradition. (Report on Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) or Female Genital Cutting (FGC)
>The sad truth is: FGM is performedall around the world wherever  Muslim communities are present
Clitoridectomy alone ensures a woman will never have an orgasm (this has been medically proved) ie her right to full sexual pleasure is denied!!  It is the same as removing the penis.  If the Islamic laws and text that support the practice are constantly hidden, they cannot be eradicated and whenever those who know Islam’s text and laws are in positions of power, they will be enforced again!   Pretending it isn’t Islamic seems good but is a dangerous distortion of the truth.   It is only pressure from the west and colonialism that has altered ‘Islamic’ behaviour but such western influence (leading to depravity) is resisted and can be overturned.
 
* Update:

Denmark: Mother sentenced in FGM case

Some hope appeared when Wikipedia, which still tries to excuse Islam, actually had the courage to state accurately that there was a Shafi law (an important school of Islamic law) that mandated CLITORIDECTOMY.  And it also daringly referred to two hadith – there are many others but hey, it’s a start!!  Can we hope for more??
Islamic Law

“One of the four Sunni schools of religious law, the Shafi’i school, rulesthat clitoridectomy is mandatory” (Wikipedia)

Yes!  The Arabic version of the law states:

“Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (bazr in Arabic)- (this is called HufaaD). “  (Reliance of the Traveller, a classical manual of Islamic sacred law in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (1994) p59. Note the English version falsely translates bazr as ‘prepuce ‘ of the clitoris!!)

Sadly – Wikipedia fails to report the comment by Sheikh ‘Abd al-Wakil Durubi in the English ‘version’ who notes:

“Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.”(Reliance of the Traveller p 59;)

Note: ‘sunna’ means the actions and words of Mohammad, the perfect example for all Muslims to follow!Sheikh ‘Abd al-Wakil Durubi’s comments show that support for clitoridectomy is widespread across Islam, not limited to the followers of Shafi Law!Sadly – Wikipedia also allows Sheikh ‘Abd al-Wakil Durubi to try the ‘it really only means trimming the clitoral hood’  line.  Of course, that’s why it says ‘removal of the clitoris’ and naturally those illiterate Arab/Muslim tribes-people past and present would have been right up with the fine detail of female anatomy.

Often the clitoris is cut from babies when the clitoris is enlarged due to pregnancy hormones and the ‘hood’ not visible (even the labia minora are just threads and are often cut too) or the clitoris is destroyed by applying hot sand and chemicals to it or it is grabbed and stretched out and sometimes a band applied and rolled back along the clitoral shaft to fully expose it for cutting —- hood, yeah, right!!   They’ve all just been ‘mistaken’ for 1400 years!!  (until some westerner put them right??).
Wikipedia also notes:

In 1994, Egyptian Mufti Sheikh Jad Al-Hâqq ‘Ali Jad Al-Hâqq issued a fatwa stating, “Circumcision is mandatory for men and for women. If the people of any village decide to abandon it, the village imam must fight against them as if they had abandoned the call to prayer.” [60] The Al-Azhar University in Cairo has issued several fatwas endorsing FGC, in 1949, 1951 and 1981.

There has been ongoing endorsement of ‘circumcision’ but note the swift switching of terms – it’s not female genital mutilation, it’s just harmless female genital cutting FGC!!
Once again I will post this recent support for clitoridectomy (as in Egypt):
On 12/2/2007 Al-Arabiya TV aired  ‘Al-Azhar University Scholars Argue over the Legitimacy of Female Circumcision Practiced in Egypt.
The debate was between Egyptian Al-Azhar University scholars Sheikh Muhammad Al-Mussayar and Sheikh Mahmoud Ashur.  The exerts are interesting because they acknowledge the hadiths related to FGM -Muhammad Al-Mussayar notes:
“All the jurisprudents, since the advent of Islam and for 14 centuries or more, are in consensus that female circumcision is permitted by Islam. But they were divided with regard to its status in shari’a. Some said that female circumcision is required by shari’a, just like male circumcision. Some said this is the mainstream practice, while others said it is a noble act. But throughout the history of Islam, nobody has ever said that performing female circumcision is a crime. There has been a religious ruling on this for 14 centuries.”
And this is why it is impossible to reform Islam … even if there attempts from within they fail.
“First of all, there are reliable hadiths in Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim which support female circumcision. The Prophet Muhammad said: ‘If a circumcised woman and man have intercourse, they must undergo ablution.’ Unreliable hadiths do not cancel out the reliable ones. We have unreliable hadiths regarding prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage. Should we abolish prayer and charity just because some hadiths are unreliable?..”Female circumcision is no less valid just because it was practiced in Pharaonic times and in the Jahiliya.  Islam accepted some customs, which were harmonious with human nature, and rejected others, which contradicted human nature.” (reported byMEMRI.org 27/2/2007 and FGMnetwork )
Hadith: these apply to all (sunni) Muslims:
1) Wikipedia has the courage to note the hadith supporting the view that clitoridectomy is sunnah – Umm Atiyyah was a known clitoris cutter.

Abu-Dawud   Book 41, No.  5251: Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:    A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina.  The prophet (peace be upon him) said to her:  Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

(Note:  The powerful Mohammad did NOT stop the procedure yet he stopped adoption so he could marry his adopted son’s wife Zainab, regarded as incest by the Arabs because adopted sons were held as sons!)
Sadly – Wikipedia  then allowed the usual excuse – it’s ‘weak in transmission.’ (Isn’t this an opinion?)   Funny then that it’s survived 1400 years, including revisions and influenced Islamic law!!   Both the ‘science’ of the hadith and this excuse are too absurd to waste time on!2) Wikipedia also notes a hadith from the highly authentic, reliable Muslim collection:

Muslim  book 3 No. 684:  Abu Musa reported: There cropped up a difference of opinion between a group of Muhajirs ….He (Abu Musa, the narrator) said: I got up (and went) to ‘A’isha and sought her permission and it was granted…… I said: What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.

Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi: Whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world.

Sadly it implies this is the only one – WRONG and it allows Dr. Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Secretary General of the World Union of the Muslim Ulemas, who agrees that the hadith is authentic, to state the most absurd, convoluted, twisted lack of reason to claim that silly Aisha, when she said TWO circumcised organs  (in the feminine form) she really meant one – the male one of course… (see logical alternative explanation below)

Both Wikipedia and Dr al-Awwa might like to try these which show that the circumcised parts were often referred to  separately ie ‘when the circumcised part touches the circumcised part’  and that both Aisha and Malik tracing several different transmitters,  refer to two separate circumcised parts and that the instruction re circumcised parts and ghusl is reported in several sets of hadith making it important!  Remember, female circumcision meant cut out the clitoris in Mohammad’s time!

a) Maliks Muwatta Section: Obligation to Do Ghusl when the Two Circumcised Parts Meet

Maliks Muwatta Book 2 , Number 2.19.73: Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Said ibn al-Musayyab that Umar ibn al-Khattab and Uthman ibn Affan and A’isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to say, “When the circumcised part touches the circumcised part, ghusl is obligatory.”

Maliks Muwatta Book 2 , Number 2.19.74: Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu’n Nadr, the mawla of Umar ibn Abdullah that Abu Salamaibn Abdar-Rahman ibn Awf related that he had asked A’isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, what made ghusl obligatory. She said, “Do you know what you are like, Abu Salama? You are like a chick when it hears the cocks crowing and so crows with them. When the circumcised part passes the circumcised part, ghusl is obligatory.”

Maliks Muwatta Book 2 , Number 2.19.75: Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that Abu Musa al-Ashari came to A’isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said to her, “The disagreement of the companions in a matter which I hate to bring before you has distressed me.” She said, “What is that? You did not ask your mother about it, so ask me.” He said, “A man penetrates his wife, but becomes listless and does not ejaculate. “She said, “When the circumcised part passes the circumcised part ghusl is obligatory.” Abu Musa added, “I shall never ask anyone about this after you.”

Maliks Muwatta Book 2 , Number 2.19.77:   Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar used to say, “When the circumcised part passes the circumcised part, ghusl is obligatory.”

b) Hajj

Maliks Muwatta Book 20   No.  20.46.161 - very long, all about penalties for contact between a male and female during hajj –……………Malik said, “What spoils a hajj or an umra and makes sacrificing an animal and repeating the hajj necessary is the meeting of the two circumcised parts, even if there is no emission.

Above hadiths from this SITE suggest that ‘circumcision’ of females was normal for Muslims:

c) Tirmidi hadith:

Tirmidi hadith 166    Narrated Aisha;  Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: When the circumcised parts bypass one another (i.e. have intercourse), taking of a bath is necessary. Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) and I did that and then we took a bath.  (from ALIM CD rom)

Logical alternative explanation:    Clitoridectomy was widely practised by Arabs at the time of Mohammad;   Aisha was an Arab;    Mohammad had endorsed the practice of clitoridectomy when speaking to Um Attiyyah (clitoris cutter) and Aisha simply spread Mohammad’s instructions;    hence it would be reasonable for Aisha  (probably circumcised herself) to address people re ‘washing after dirty sex,’ to refer to the TWO circumcised organs coming into contact as this would be the normal case.    Malik likewise notes the same statements coming from Umar ibn al-Khattab and Uthman ibn Affan and A’isha. d) As for female circumcision (clitoridectomy in Mohammad’s day) being a sign of respect for women, and a hadith  where the women of al-Ansar were addressed endorsing female circumcision, they are referred to in Dr al-Awwa’s paper ‘Female Circumcision Neither a sunna, nor a Sign of Respect’    – ( I own a copy but it’s nolonger available!).
Also Hadith in the Musnad by Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, where Shaddad Ibn Aws reports that the prophet said:

“Cicumcision is a sunnah for Men, MAKRUMAH for women”      (MAKRUMAH can be translated as “noble deed” or “honorable”) cited HERE

These show that such hadith exist—call them ‘weak’ if you like!Shia View
Foster states that female circumcision is rumoured to be common amongst Shi’ite communities ruled by Hezbollah in Lebanon  (Wikipedia)Judaism;  Christianity:
Wikipedia may note correctly that neither Judaism nor Christianity have text supporting clitoridectomy etc and notes that the only members of these two groups that carry it out are those from Africa ie from areas under considerable Arab/Islamic influence for 1400 years.  Christian converts from Islam sometimes continue the practice.  Old WHO reports showed much higher practice rates amongst Muslims in FGM areas than Christians but it’s now politically incorrect to note this.

Sadly- Wikipedia refers to an extremist nut case who calls himself a Christian in regard to FGC but fails to report the array of Islamic clerics that endorse the practice, in full accordance with Islamic text/laws in the Islamic world and the west.   The false Christian-Muslim’ equivalence continues while hiding the full extent of Islamic involvement.
Indeed further instances of such practices are found in the Islamic world all the time and becoming more prominent in Muslim countries where the progress of Islam was slowed by colonialism eg Indonesia ( see ‘In the cut’  Sydney Mornig Herald  January 13, 2004 and NYT.

‘A cutting tradition’ where practices vary from pricking the clitoris, cutting/removing it or removing it plus labia with more destructive procedures increasing).
Note how the spread of FGM/clitoridectomy matches the spread of Islam  – Africa (NOT in the south where Arab/Islam didn’t penetrate initially); Middle-East;  Turkey;  India;  Malaysia;  Indonesia…
Female Genital Mutilation in Indonesia – Let’s blame it on the Black Africans!
Will we blame the Africans for all of it? – surely, given the thousands of years since the Pharaohs, it would have spread throughout Africa if we are to only blame the Pharaohs who were generally not black, and the black Africans!
Irfan Yusuf blames an old Indonesian practice! ( Does Yusuf mean liar in Arabic?) It’s practised in Australia- – will we call it an old Australian practice?  Dito Europe, America?
______________________________
Australia’s Mufti supports clitoridectomy – do you think he’s ignorant of Islamic text and laws?
Pamela Bone (who also thought clitoridectomy wasn’t part of Islamic law!) referred to an interview with Sheik Fehmi al-Imam of the Preston Mosque where she asked him about clitoridectomy and he replied:

“You probably don’t need it but women in hot countries do”!!! (Melbourne   Age 21/7/01 p7)

What’s the bet that the first person prosecuted for genital mutilation/clitoridectomy is an African Christian or Animist – in an effort to show it’s not Islamic!Including other forms of genital cutting helps to fudge the relationship between Islam and clitoridectomy.  Remember, when overtaken, some cultures take-on the culture of their overlords particularly if there are already some similarities (eg some African tribes) while others resist certain practises  (eg initially Christian Syria resisting clitoridectomy) so culture does have an influence but in the case of Islam so does religion (religious culture!!).   So, the fact that a restricted few others perform FGM/clitoridectomy/FGC (genitals have always been fascinating) and some Muslim groups don’t, does NOT mean there is not a close link between FGM/clitoridectomy and Islam.
Quiz:
  • Which religion has a law that makes clitoridectomy obligatory?
  • Which religion has a prophet who endorsed clitoridectomy?
  • Which religion has hadiths that support clitoridectomy/circumcision of females
  • The spread of which religion is most closely related to the spread of clitoridectomy/FGM?
  • Which religion carries out most clitoridectomies  the world over?
  • Which religion has an Australian mufti that supports clitoridectomy?

If you answered Islam to all, give yourself a tick!! But remember, it’s nothing to do with Islam!!


Some articles on FGM/clitoridectomy on the site:

Comments (22)add

The Arabic version of the law states:

“Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (bazr in Arabic)- (this is called HufaaD). ” (Reliance of the Traveller, a classical manual of Islamic sacred law in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (1994) p59.

* Note the English version falsely translates bazr as ‘prepuce ‘ of the clitoris!!)

Strict adherence to islamic values, of course! I was being rhetorical. If you are still uncertain as to what good islamic values might actually be, those values so superior to our Australian un-islamic values, the ever reliable dhimmi SMH has printed a guide.http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/slaughtered-in-name-of-family/2008/12/05/1228257318380.htmlI wonder if Keysar would care to comment? Which part of these much-vaunted “values” should we attempt to emulate? Islamic “honor” or Islamic murder?

I also wonder if he has any comment on the 16 cases of backyard clitorectomy reputed to have been performed in Queensland this past year?
http://fgmnetwork.org/news/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1206899204&archive=&template=

Things to emulate from “islamic values”.

An article I recently read, relating to FGM, asks “whether groups that are illiberal and sexist should be afforded group rights and protections by liberal states, or whether, instead, sexist cultural practices and perhaps entire cultures should be altered or allowed to become ‘extinct’.”
The author, Susan Moller Okin, was discussing multiculturalism under the question,“Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women?” and her conclusion, in terms of the barbarity that has been sanctioned in order to appease politically correct, cultural tyranny, is… YES, M/C has been bad for many women, usually those who come from “3rd World” countries.

Like the students at the Brisbane school in question.
I watched video of the poor little mites, 2 nights ago, trotted out to do what the adults can’t do… defend islam. “See, how brightly they shine!”
Headscarf and other signs of inferior status proudly worn, it was quite obvious that the student body is made up of immigrant children and just as obvious that many of their parents would have been from those ‘3rd World countries’ we aren’t supposed to be critical of. Except if you are a Feminist academic, apparently.

About 12% of the schools student body (or their parents) come from Egypt.

“Egypt is the second most populous African nation and the most populous Arab nation. Egypt is a leader in Islamic jurisprudence, and its citizenry is 90% Muslim. Female circumcision (female genital mutilation or FGM) has been practiced in Egypt for thousands of years and perhaps as many as 97% of Egyptian “ever-married” women have endured the practice. Although there is disagreement among theologians, fundamentalists continue to promote FGM as an Islamic mandate for the preservation of women’s chastity.” (Source unknown) In fairness, the Egyptians have made FGM illegal, as of ’97, but reports from reliable sources indicate that the letter of the law and the practice of it is lagging somewhat in Egypt. Many tens of thousands of Egyptian women still face these horrors, just without access to modern medicine!

The chance that some of Keysar’s charges have been cut up to placate some primitive, religiously-inspired barbarity?
In MY AUSTRALIA, I don’t want to run the chance that even ONE has suffered this barbarity. I guess that is un-islamic, but I can live with it.
Keysar says upholding Australian law and culture is a pre-eminent focus of the school. Well, as FGM is illegal in Queensland and every other State, I suggest his school has a legal responsibility to inform Authorities of cases it knows of.

In the abridged Table below, please note that Indonesia, from where this school also draws a large number of its students, is rated as 100% in instituting 2 forms of FGM.
Note also the likelihood of the remaining school populace to be comprised of students from the other nations listed.

FGM Around the World

COUNTRY – PREVALENCE (%) – TYPE PERFORMED

Benin – 16.8 – II

Burkina Faso – 76.6 – II – Performed throughout the country in all but a few provinces.

Cameroon – 1 – I, II

Central African Republic – 35.9 – I, II

Chad – 44.9 – II – Widely practiced in all parts of Chad.
III – Confined to areas bordering Sudan in the eastern part of the country.

Cote d’Ivoire (Ivory Coast) – 44.5 – II

Djibouti – 90-98 – II – Performed on girls of Yemeni origin. III – Most common among the Issa and Afar.

DRC (Congo)- Unknown – II

Egypt – 97.3% – I, II, III

Eritrea – 88.7 – I, II, III

Ethiopia – 79.9 – I – Commonly practiced among Amharas, Tigrayans and the Jeberti Muslims living in Tigray.
II – Most commonly practiced form. The Gurages, some Tigrayans, Oromos and the Shankilas practice this form.
III – Practiced in the eastern Muslim regions bordering Sudan and Somalia.
IV – Referred to as “Mariam Girz” in Ethiopia, it is practiced mainly in Gojam in the Amhara region.

Gambia – 60-90 – I – The Sarahulis perform this on girls one week after birth. The Bambaras perform the procedure on girls between 10-15 years of age.
II – Nearly all Mandinkas, Jolas and Hausas practice this form on girls 10-15 years old.
III – The Fulas perform a procedure similar to Type III that is described as “vaginal sealing” on girls from one week old to 18 years old.
IV – The Fulas perform this type on girls from one week old to 18 years old.

Ghana – 5.4 – I, II, III

Guinea – 98.6 – I, II, III, IV

Indonesia – 100 – I, IV

Kenya – 32.2 – I and II most common.
III – found in the far eastern areas bordering Somalia.

Liberia – 50 – II

Mali – 91.6 – I, II, III (Type III practiced in southern areas of country)

Mauritania – 71.5 – I, II

Niger – 4.5 – II

Nigeria – 19 – I, II, III, IV
(Type I and II more prominent in the south; Type III more prominent in north)

Senegal – 28.2 – II, III
(Type II is most common)

Sierra Leone – 80-90 – II

Somalia – 90-98 – I – practiced mainly in the coastal towns of Mogadishu, Brava, Merca, and Kismayu.
III – Approximately 80% of the circumcisions are this type.

Sudan – 90 – I, II, III
(Type III is most common)

Tanzania – 17.7 – II, III

Togo – 12 – II

Uganda – 5 – No information available.

Yemen – 22.6 – II, III

DEFINITIONS OF TYPES OF FGC/FC :
Type I – Circumcision is the excision (removal) of the prepuce (clitoral hood) with or without removal of a part of the clitoris (a.k.a. sunna circumcision).

Type II – Excision or clitoridectomy is the excision of the clitoris together with part or all of the labia minora (the inner vaginal lips).

Type III – Infibulation is the excision of part or all of the external genitalia (clitoris, labia minora and labia majora) and stitching or narrowing of the vaginal opening, leaving a very small opening, about the size of a matchstick, to allow for the flow of urine and menstrual blood. The girl or woman’s legs are generally bound together from the hip to the ankle so she remains immobile for approximately 40 days to allow for the formation of scar tissue (referred to as Sudanese circumcision in Egypt; referred to as Pharaonic circumcision in Somalia).

Type IV – Unclassified includes the p***king, piercing or incision of the clitoris and/or labia; also includes symbolic rituals. The application or insertion of corrosive substances into the vagina is also considered Type IV.

Defibulation or deinfibulation – Cutting open the scar tissue that has formed around the vaginal opening to allow penetration by her husband or for the birth of a child.

Refibulation or reinfibulation or recircumcision – The sewing up of a circumcised woman’s vaginal opening after childbirth or periodically during her life when she feels as though her opening has gotten too big or loose.

Alternative rituals – An alternative to FGM in which the traditional ceremony takes place without the actual cutting. In Kenya, girls go through a week-long program designed as a coming-of-age workshop. This ritual is called “Ntanira Na Mugambo” or “Circumcision Through Words.”

Introcision – A form of FGM/C that is practiced by the Pitta-Patta aborigines of Australia where the vaginal orifice is enlarged by tearing it downward with three fingers bound with an opossum string. The procedure is performed by an elderly man when the girl reaches puberty. In other districts, the perineum is split with a stone knife. Compulsory sexual intercourse with a number of young men usually follows the introcision. Mexico, Brazil, and Peru reportedly practice this form of FGM/C. In Peru, among a division of Pano Indians, an elderly woman uses a bamboo knife to cut around the hymen from the vaginal entrance and severs the hymen from the labia, at the same time exposing the clitoris. Medicinal herbs are applied, followed by the insertion of a phallic clay object into the vagina.

Islamic values or Australian? Frankly, the concept of “islamic values” is an affront to every person who calls himself Australian.

There is no way to overstate this – the implications of allowing islam to continue unchecked and cosseted by appeasing lawmakers, etc, MUST BE STOPPED, or this country runs the risk of sliding into a dark pit of depravity such as it has never known.
People of Australia – the time to fight for your country is NOW.

Update:

Female genital mutilation in Iraqi Kurdistan: “we will never stop because Islam and our elders require it”

The mainstream media and Islamic advocacy groups in the United States constantly tell us that female genital mutilation is a cultural practice that has nothing to do with Islam. They do this despite the fact that the among the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, Shafi’is consider circumcision obligatory for women; Hanbalis say it is an honorable custom, but not obligatory; Hanafis say it should be done as a courtesy to the husband. None of the three, you’ll note, say that the practice is wrong, immoral, un-Islamic.

Anyway, the upshot of this situation is that while most Westerners take for granted, if they’ve ever heard of female genital mutilation at all, that it is un-Islamic, it remains only Muslims who haven’t gotten this message.

“For Kurdish Girls, a Painful Ancient Ritual,” by Amit R. Paley for the Washington Post, December 29 (thanks to Morgaan Sinclair):

TUZ KHURMATU, Iraq – Sheelan Anwar Omer, a shy 7-year-old Kurdish girl, bounded into her neighbor’s house with an ear-to-ear smile, looking for the party her mother had promised.There was no celebration. Instead, a local woman quickly locked a rusty red door behind Sheelan, who looked bewildered when her mother ordered the girl to remove her underpants. Sheelan began to whimper, then tremble, while the women pushed apart her legs and a midwife raised a stainless-steel razor blade in the air. “I do this in the name of Allah!” she intoned.

As the midwife sliced off part of Sheelan’s genitals, the girl let out a high-pitched wail heard throughout the neighborhood. As she carried the sobbing child back home, Sheelan’s mother smiled with pride.

“This is the practice of the Kurdish people for as long as anyone can remember,” said the mother, Aisha Hameed, 30, a housewife in this ethnically mixed town about 100 miles north of Baghdad. ”We don’t know why we do it, but we will never stop because Islam and our elders require it.”

Kurdistan is the only known part of Iraq –and one of the few places in the world–where female circumcision is widespread. More than 60 percent of women in Kurdish areas of northern Iraq have been circumcised, according to a study conducted this year. In at least one Kurdish territory, 95 percent of women have undergone the practice, which human rights groups call female genital mutilation.

The practice, and the Kurdish parliament’s refusal to outlaw it, highlight the plight of women in a region with a reputation for having a more progressive society than the rest of Iraq. Advocates for women point to the increasing frequency of honor killings against women and female self-immolations in Kurdistan this year as further evidence that women in the area still face significant obstacles, despite efforts to raise public awareness of circumcision and violence against women. [...]

Supporters of female circumcision said the practice, which has been a ritual in their culture for countless generations, is rooted in sayings they attribute to the prophet Muhammad, though the accuracy of those sayings is disputed by other Muslim scholars….

Of course. But they don’t seem to be able to dispute the accuracy of those sayings effectually enough to curb this practice where it is found among Muslims.

Update:

Thousands of girls in Britain have suffered genital mutilation

Circumcision is “obligatory” for “both men and women” — so says a legal manual of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, ‘Umdat al-Salik (e4.3). This school is dominant in Egypt, where 97% of women have suffered genital mutilation. The Hanbali school teaches, in contrast, that female genital mutilation is not obligatory, while noting that it is accepted Islamic practice; the Hanafi school calls it “a mere courtesy to the husband.”

In any case, the Islamic justifications given for the practice enable it to continue. Yet in the West it is considered “Islamophobic” to mention these Islamic justifications. However, the longer they are ignore, the more girls will be mutilated in Britain and the West in general. Calling this an African custom, as this article does, is a misdiagnosis, and like all misdiagnoses it will contribute nothing toward a cure.

“Thousands of girls mutilated in Britain,” by Richard Kerbaj in the Times, March 16 or Jihad Watch

The NHS is to advertise free operations to reverse female circumcisions, with experts warning that each year more than 500 British girls have their genitals mutilated.Despite having been outlawed in 1985, female circumcision is still practised in British African communities, in some cases on girls as young as 5. Police have been unable to bring a single prosecution even though they suspect that community elders are being flown from the Horn of Africa to carry out the procedures.

The advertisement will appear from next month on a Somali satellite TV station much viewed in Britain. It features Juliet Albert, a midwife who does the reverse operations, and promises, in English and Somali, confidentiality for victims of female genital mutilation.

The advertisement was expected to help to undermine demand for girls to be circumcised, and to popularise the reversal procedure, Ms Albert said. Thousands of such operations have been carried out at specialist clinics and hospitals around Britain and demand is growing slowly.

Female circumcision, which is done for various reasons, such as religious and cultural traditions, can cause severe health complications including infections and psychological problems. The procedure, predominantly carried out on girls aged between 5 and 12, can range from the removal of the clitoris to the removal of all the exterior parts of the vagina, which is then sewn up.

A study by the Foundation for Women’s Health, Research and Development (Forward), estimated that 66,000 women living in England and Wales had been circumcised, most before leaving their country of origin. The government-funded research also found that more than 7,000 girls were at a high risk of being subjected to genital mutilation in Britain.

Sarah McCulloch, of the Agency for Culture Change Management UK, said that every year more than 500 British girls were having circumcisions. “A lot of them are done in the UK, but some still travel overseas,” she said….

Update:

 

Mali: Women demand law against genital mutilation

Brava! But they will face an uphill battle, with opposition sure to come from Islamic clerics. “Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)” – ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3.

“Women Finally Demand Law Against Genital Mutilation,” from MISNA, August 7 (thanks to JW):

Yesterday, some 700 activists, mostly women, have marched in favor of the introduction of laws to ban the practice of female genital mutilation (FMG) in Bamako. The demonstrators presented the request directly to parliament. The long overdue initiative, organized by the Coordination of women’s NGO’s in Mali, was repeated in other areas of the country, where more women also staged small gatherings. “The rate of FMG in Mali is very high, reaching some 92%” said Nicola Giovannini of the “No Peace without Justice” NGO to MISNA; the organization has been engaged in a vast campaign against female mutilation alongside Malian NGO’s. Giovannini said that in Mali, there is a strong political consensus for a law to ban the practice, but authorities have so far suggested that Malian society itself is not yet ready to penalize this terrible and very established practice. The participation in anti FMG protests suggests that there is an ever stronger – if long overdue – desire for change.

Al-Misri on Circumcision

Baron Bodissey

reported briefly yesterday on the sharia requirement for female circumcision, as mandated by Reliance of the Traveller, which is the authoritative law manual under the Shafiite school of Islamic law. In the comments section on the post, Inalienable Rights requested that I scan the page in question and post it so that everyone could have a look.

I’m more than happy to comply, but a first brief introduction is in order. We (that is, people who resist the Great Jihad) are routinely accused of distorting Islamic doctrine, quoting material out of context, relying on “extremist” sources that do not represent “true Islam”, etc. I’ll present the material here as if I were establishing an evidentiary chain in a court of law, citing factual material from creditable sources so as to present a case that could stand up before a judge and a jury.

But this process represents Western standards of logic and legality. None of it will stop me from being accused of “defaming Islam”, because anything I do — even quoting authoritative sources on Islamic law — is defined as “defamation” under sharia if it does not serve to further Islam.

That’s why the kuffar may be legitimately shouted down for quoting the Koran, while Muslims may do the same freely. This is not illogical, and there’s no contradiction: it makes complete sense, once you understand the basic premises of Islamic doctrine.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
Reliance of the TravellerThe source I cite here is ’Umdat al-salik wa ’uddat al-nasik, or The reliance of the traveller and tools of the worshipper. It is commonly referred to as Reliance of the Traveller when cited in English.

According to the title page, my copy is the Revised Edition (published 1991, revised 1994) and is “The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ’Umdat al-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices”, edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller. The publisher is listed as amana publications in Beltsville, Maryland.

Why do I consider this an authoritative source on Sunni Islamic law?

Because it is certified as such by Al-Azhar University in Cairo. There is no higher authority on Sunni Islamic doctrine than Al-Azhar; it is the closest equivalent to the Vatican that can be found in Islam.

On page xx of the “Documents” preface, we find this encomium (the Arabic version, including official stamps and seals, is on the facing page xxi):
- – -  – - – - -

 

[CERTIFICATION OF AL-AZHAR]

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASSIONATE

al-Azhar
Islamic Research Academy
General Department for Research, Writing, and Translation

Mr. Nuh Ha Mim Keller
Amman, Jordan

Peace be upon you, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

To commence: In response to the request you have submitted concerning the examination of the English translation of the book ’Umdat al-salik wa ’uddat al-nasik by Ahmad ibn Naqib in the Shafi’i school of jurisprudence, together with appendices by Islamic scholars on matters of Islamic law, tenets of faith, and personal ethics and character: we certify that the above-mentioned translation corresponds to the Arabic original and conforms to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni Community (Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama’a). There is no objection to printing it and circulating it.

The stamping of the pages of the above-mentioned work with the seal of the department has been completed.

May Allah give you success in serving Sacred Knowledge and the religion. Peace be upon you, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

Composed on 26 Rajah 1411 A.H./11 February 1991 A.D.

General Director of Research, Writing, and Translation
Fath Allah Ya Sin Jazar [signed]

Muhammad ’Umar Muhammad ’Umar [signed]

Seal of al-Azhar [stamped] General Department for Research, Writing, and Translation

This establishes the unassailable credentials of Nuh Ha Mim Keller’s translation of ’Umdat al-Salik.

In Book E “Purification”, section e4.0 “The Body”, we find on page 59 the following text:

Reliance, e4.3
This is the original Arabic, for those of our readers who read the language and can translate it for themselves. For everyone else, below is an image of the English side-by-side with the Arabic. I include e4.4 just to give you an idea of the type of material covered by Book E:

Reliance, e4.3 and e4.4
And here is the same text after it has been processed through the OCR:

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)

As I mentioned yesterday, this section demonstrates that all four schools of Sunni law consider female circumcision a good thing, and two of them list it as mandatory.

I also mentioned that the original Arabic is more stringent than the English version, in that it specifies excising the entire clitoris rather than just the prepuce. I find further backing for this assertion in the Australian Islamist Monitor, which reports:

Reliance of the Traveller, a classical manual of Islamic sacred law in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (1994) re ‘circumcision’ we find the Arabic actually says -

“Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD). “ (p59) (Shafi’I jurisprudence)

(Note the English version is falsely translated as ‘prepuce ‘ of the clitoris!!)

The Arabic word bazr does not mean “prepuce of the clitoris”, it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ’Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed. Note a comment by Sheikh ‘Abd al-Wakil Durubi in the English ‘version’ notes “Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.” (answering-Islam.org)

This is supported by several hadiths eg

Abu-Dawud Book 41, No. 5251: Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

(Note: The powerful Mohammad did NOT stop the procedure yet he did stop the Arab practise of adoption when he wished to marry his adopted son’s wife Zainab, regarded as incest by the Arabs because adopted sons were held as sons!)

Anyone who reads Arabic is invited to check the image posted above against what AIM says here, and see if you agree with it.

With this, the sharia justification (and, under Shafi, requirement) for radical female circumcision is now clearly and fully demonstrated, and constitutes a “fact in evidence”.

Case closed.

Besotted multiculturalist anthropologists defend female genital mutilation

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{ 505 comments… read them below or add one }

kaw August 10, 2009 at 12:03 pm

Solkhar,
Again you illustrate a reduced level of comprehension. The point is not that FMG is written or not written in the quran – the point is that the quran is interpreted to justify FMG. GOT IT??????? Probably not.

Solkhar August 10, 2009 at 2:39 pm

Interesting if you actually look into the fact, when that particular leader from Al-Azhar said it should be done, the Mufti of Egypt declared it prohibited a month later – officially.

“2007-JUN-24: the Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gum’s announced that: “… this custom is prohibited.”

We can see why, because the year before it was discussed and decided as a joint decision including the actual Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar, see below:

2006 international conference:
TARGET, a German human rights group, sponsored a conference on FGM in Cairo, Egypt. Muslim scholars from many nations attended. At the conclusion of the conference on 2006-NOV-24, their final statement declared FGM to be contrary to Islam, an attack on women, and a practice that should be criminalized:

“The conference appeals to all Muslims to stop practicing this habit, according to Islam’s teachings which prohibit inflicting harm on any human being. … The conference reminds all teaching and media institutions of their role to explain to the people the harmful effects of this habit in order to eliminate it. … The conference calls on judicial institutions to issue laws that prohibit and criminalize this habit … which appeared in several societies and was adopted by some Muslims although it is not sanctioned by the Qur’an or the Sunna.”

According to The Age online news source:

“Egypt’s two top Islamic clerics, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar, the foremost theological institute in the Sunni Muslim world, and Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, attended the conference, which drew scholars from as far afield as Russia. Tantawi’s and Gomaa’s edicts are considered binding.

There is much more on the topic, pretty much making it clear that the assumption of this article that it is Sunnah goes like this:

When the interviewer pressured the mufti by asking specifically whether Islam prohibits or permits FGM, Ali Gum’a replied:

“This issue, with these characteristics, in our times – is prohibited. If they want to know what the Mufti of Egypt has to say. I say this custom is prohibited.”

Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi, the Grand Sheikh of Cairo’s al-Azhar mosque, has repeated his assertion that the practice as un-Islamic. However, some other Muslim clerics have supported FGM.

UNICEF reports that:

“… Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practiced.” 8

Coptic Pope Shenouda, the leader of Egypt’s minority Christian community, said that neither the Koran nor the Bible demand or mention female circumcision. 9

Su’ad Saleh of Al-Azhar University commented:

“After the [statement by the Mufti] there is nothing left for me to say. This is what I have been demanding from the Mufti and the religious scholars – a categorical ruling on such issues. But when some of them say that this is permitted ‘when necessary,’ and if a doctor performs it … It was a doctor who did this, and look at the result … Society as a whole is responsible for the death of this girl. This is tantamount to the custom of burying girls alive, before the advent of Islam. It is like the burying the girl in the physical and psychological sense.”

But I wonder if the response to my posting now will be “so what?” or “this is taqiyya” or some other excuse. My guess is avoidance altogether now that the reality is clear. Man Muslims still continue doing so and it is either because they are radicals and thus strive to use primative tribal barbarity to ensure their control over followers or they simply do not know better. Either way, right-wing radical propoganda will not help as they will redirect their efforts to the entire faith of 1.6 billion people instead of trying to suppor the efforts of the governments and moderates.

kaw August 10, 2009 at 6:13 pm

Whether FGM is in the Quran or not is irrelevant – the Quran is used to justify it. That is the problem. And muslims are f*** it up for everyone – we are now just starting to react. And a big problem are muslims who refuse to accept that muslim are the problem. THANK YOU!!!

kaw August 10, 2009 at 6:14 pm

And as for a war Solkhar – when it starts you will know – and muslims would have started it.

sheikyermami August 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm

Solkhar, your lies are noted and rejected.

Islam is the cult of Mohammed and those who follow him are Mohammed worshipers, (Mohammedans). “Muslims” is an euphemism we must reject. Your co-religionists are obsessed with imitating your ‘perfect man’ who was by any standard a criminal and a mass murderer. Anyone who has his heart and mind in the right place must reject his behavior, along with polygamy, misogyny and pedophilia, all of which your prophet practiced with impunity, and many (if not most) of his believers engage in even today.

FGM is by no means illegal in Islamic countries, and claims by Islamic religious leaders to the contrary are simply lies for Western consumption. (Or has anybody ever been convicted in a Mohammedan country for having his daughters clit cut out?) The reality is also, that in places like Egypt some 97% of women are genitally mutilated, in Somalia even more severely. In Yemen too. These people do it because they believe it is the “Sunnah of the prophet”, and your argument that its “not in the Koran” is useless and a detraction. The article is about what Mohammedans believe and what they practice. Take it up with them! Why bother with us? If you believe its illegal and bad you should use your energies to prove to these people that they are wrong, not waste your time here with unbelievers who oppose your cult, to convince them of what exactly? That we are wrong?

FGM is not tribal because its spreading in countries like Indonesia, (a former Buddhist and Hindu country) that is now Islamic and follows “the sunna of the prophet”) There are no Christians who practice FGM. If you should know of any they are most certainly not following their scriptures. I don’t give a rats ass about some African tribes who practice it because its as irrelevant as the claim that there is “only a tiny minority of extremists” who blow themselves up because they misunderstand their peaceful religion. It is not our business to look for “moderate” killers and sort them from them who will kill us tomorrow. Is suicide bombing “un-Islamic?” The question itself is an absurdity, because the suicide bombers certainly think so and I have no intention to sort them out. But go right ahead and tell me “its not in the Koran”- as if it mattered. (9:111 comes to mind) Islam is simply what Mohammedans do, not what they say. According to Muhammad, Koran and sunnah, no peaceful coexistence between Muslims and unbelievers is possible: the unbeliever is to be deceived, conquered, must pay the jiziya with willing submission while feeling utterly subdued and humiliated and eventually killed to please Allah (from Al-Ilha, the pagan moongod of the ancient desert Arabs, Muhammads reinvention)

This is the tried and well established pattern throughout the centuries, and we can see it every day from Egypt to Pakistan, from Bangladesh to Nigeria, from Somalia to Kashmir and from Iraq to wherever Islam and the jihad claims its victims. I am well aware of your agenda as a detractor, and your claim that “instead of finding solutions and working with moderates to clearly identify the real issues and to target the real dangers amongs radical and militant Muslims, you have chosen to attack the entire faith and thus misdirect the real battle and if anything help the radicals and militants by proving their argument” is laughable and pathetic.

What are the “real issues” Solkhar? Israel? The “root causes?” What are your “solutions?” Killing the Jews as mandated in the hadith? What is your real concern other than spreading Islam and removing obstacles to the spread of Islam?

Resistance to the spread of your cult is a duty, a sacred duty because our law, our civilization and our culture (with all its flaws) is infinitely better than your cult.

That’s what this website is all about, and if that f*kcs things up for you it does what it should, don’t you think?

As for what Islam really wants, I really do enjoy hearing it from the camels mouth. This guy is one of my favorites. How would you like to prove him wrong?

Solkhar August 10, 2009 at 11:19 pm

It is interesting how quickly one looks at the article above that it is only an agenda-based propoganda excercise and a very poor example of what would be fair journalistic reporting.

Al-Munji declared on 10 May 2007 that it is Sunnah. He is only one of many clerics of Al-Azhar and a known radical.

What the report did not say was that a month later on 14 June 2007 (a month later) the Grand-Mufti of Egypt, Ali Goum announced that: “… this custom is prohibited”.

Al-Munji arleady had knowledge of this edict by the Mufti and in fact by his boss Mohammed Sayed Tantawi the Shiek of Al-Azhar. It was made clear at a 2006 international conference:

“TARGET, a German human rights group, sponsored a conference on FGM in Cairo, Egypt. Muslim scholars from many nations attended. At the conclusion of the conference on 2006-NOV-24, their final statement declared FGM to be contrary to Islam, an attack on women, and a practice that should be criminalized:

“The conference appeals to all Muslims to stop practicing this habit, according to Islam’s teachings which prohibit inflicting harm on any human being. … The conference reminds all teaching and media institutions of their role to explain to the people the harmful effects of this habit in order to eliminate it. … The conference calls on judicial institutions to issue laws that prohibit and criminalize this habit … which appeared in several societies and was adopted by some Muslims although it is not sanctioned by the Qur’an or the Sunna.”

According to The Age online news source:

“Egypt’s two top Islamic clerics, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar, the foremost theological institute in the Sunni Muslim world, and Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, attended the conference, which drew scholars from as far afield as Russia. Tantawi’s and Gomaa’s edicts are considered binding.

So thus the truth comes out.

No doubt that radicals will say otherwise and right-wing western agenda-based groups will play on it, that is the nature of the “game” they wish to play – or should I say playing and feeding off each other.

FGM is a tribal custom and as been confirmed not Islamic or Sunnah. Radicals and extremists like to use tribal customs and claim otherwise as it gives more control over the undeducated parts of their population, such as the use of the Burqa and locking away the females out of sight, mind, without education or participation in life.

Now we wait for the blog-owner to say “so what” or somehow claim that I am distracting from the great crime and reality that it is still occuring, which of course I am not. I condemn the act completely and I have a doctor-wife at an international hospital whom will contact local police everytime a sub-saharan African young female is admitted with complications.

Solkhar August 11, 2009 at 12:20 am
Solkhar August 11, 2009 at 12:29 am

“What are the “real issues” Solkhar? Israel? The “root causes?” What are your “solutions?” Killing the Jews as mandated in the hadith? What is your real concern other than spreading Islam and removing obstacles to the spread of Islam?”

The real issues is Radicalism and how it should be battled. Radical and extreme Islam as well as radical and extreme “any religion” and radical and extreme Right or Left in politics. Right now for example the radical and extreme Islamists are a serious danger to everyone and should be battled and the problem is that their amunition to gather support amongst conservative Muslims is often the real evidence of the hate and lies of agenda based radical and extremist far-right in the west.

Israel is an Arab political issue and radicals have hijacked it. Israelis holiday here in Morocco and in my city of Marrakech.

Jews? Again it is the radicals, moderate Muslims will remind any who ask that Jews and Christians are People of the Book and they both can live side by side with Muslims with no problem, except for these radicals.

Killing Jews is mandated in the haddiths? Which one, there are so many and they are followed by radicals mostly, why do most Muslim countries not have a shoot on sight order then ? That is why your argument is rubbish, no Muslim country demands it, because those so-called haddiths are ignored as they should be.

As for the spread of Islam, it should only be spread by example and frankly speaking as long as the Muslim world sits on its behind and does nothing, I am suprised that there are converts at all. Conversion by force is for my part haram and it does not demand that in the Qur’an as well.

sheikyermami August 11, 2009 at 12:44 am

Statements by Muslim clerics for Western consumption are worthless. I have the statement you mentioned here, Solkhar, and I’m unimpressed. In another report from AP Tantawi lies and denies: “In Islam, circumcision is for men only,” he told the conference. “From a religious point of view, I don’t find anything that says that circumcision is a must [for women].
In Egypt, there is no law that specifically bans the practice, and nobody has ever been prosecuted for it.

One of the four Sunni schools of religious law, the Shafi`i school, rules that trimming of the clitoral hood is mandatory.[66] Sheikh Faraz Rabbani states, “That which is wajib [obligatory] in the Shafi`i texts is merely slight ‘trimming’ of the tip of the clitoral hood – prepuce.” Contrary to the WHO definition, he states that this practice is not “FGM, nor harmful to the woman or her ability to derive sexual pleasure.” He states that “excision, FGM, or other harmful practices” are not permitted.[67] In 1994, Egyptian Mufti Sheikh Jad Al-Hâqq argued that the procedure may not be banned simply on grounds of improper use.[68] Al-Azhar University in Cairo had issued several fatwas endorsing FGC, in 1949, 1951 and 1981, but then over ruled these with a more recent fatwa totally banning the practice, as it goes against the principles and teachings of Islam.[69]

But is doesn’t, because Muhammad said “don’t cut too deep”- which sanctions it and that’s why they do it.

But I’m not going to waste any more time with you, Solkhar. Take it up with your co-religionists, we don’t need your denials. Fact is, Mohammedans do it around the world because its “the sunnah of the prophet”- just like suicide bombers blow themselves up for the sake of Allah to get their 72 virgins and the 24 boyz. How will you convince them otherwise? And of course, honor killings are also totally un-Islamic, but never condemmed by Mohammedans because its perfectly okay to restore the families “honor”. (spit)
BTW: What is the police to do when your wife reports a “sub-saharan African young female with complications?” Are they going to restore her mutilated clit?

Just curious!

PS: here is sheik Qaradawi’s fatwa on FGM:

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet’s hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: “Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands”. The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman’s health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet’s saying “do not exceed the limit” means do not totally remove the clitoris.
We have other Mohammedans defend the practice here:

We got mail: a Muslim poster praises Female Genital Mutilation as “yet another gift Islam gave to women like many others during Europe’s Dark Ages”

…and Australia’s mufti, sheik Fehmi, is very much in favor of the practice too, although he is widely reported to be a “moderate:”

sheikyermami August 11, 2009 at 1:02 am

LOL! So now we have a “war against radicalism?”

Solkhar, you are barking up the wrong tree. Sort it out with your fellow Mohammedans!

As you can see here, those who understand the Koran correctly cannot be cured:

Psychiatrists cannot undo Taliban brainwashing

* Would-be suicide bomber still considers suicide attacks best way to tackle any person who becomes hurdle in implementing sharia

sheikyermami August 11, 2009 at 2:12 am

Sollkhar sez:

“Killing Jews is mandated in the haddiths? Which one, there are so many…”

LOL! Where are these hadiths “ignored as they should be?”

Should the Koran also be ignored then?

Solkhar August 11, 2009 at 10:10 am

This is the typical BS answer to evidence, either you say “so what” or you ignore facts and claim other so-called authority.

Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is the Muslim world’s version of a tele-evangalist and somehow the blogger wishes us to believe that the head of Al-Azhar and the Grand-Mufti of Egypt is of lesser importance than a radical with a television show.

That is just the proof needed that a western far-right blogger would rather the entire Islamic world be placed on the reputation of a Muslim Television Evangalist but would call any blogger ‘stupid and ignorant’ if the same assumption was given back and that all of Christianity in the West is surely based on the words of the late Reverend Jerry Falwell.

Simply put, your postings are agenda based propoganda because you follow a western-chauvenist right-wing political view and the reality in the end is that your the minority, the staged evidence of your BS is shown for what it is each time but of course is simply ignored and it would be laughable except that it deflects on the real battles against radicalism.

Yes the war is against radicalism, both in Islam – the real physical war with militants (and terrorists) and their supportive radical and extremist ideology. AS WELL as the western radicals from the far-right that use supremicist, bigoted and racist attacks (albiet mostly of a poisonous subversive and information based) to attempt to create hate and division for their own ideology.

sheikyermami August 17, 2009 at 6:52 am

Propaganda? Stick with facts, Solkhar:

You already conceded the truth:

Yes the war is against radicalism, both in Islam – the real physical war with militants (and terrorists) and their supportive radical and extremist ideology.

“their supportive radical and extremist ideology” -Solkhar? Hello? Anybody home? Where does it come from, this supportive radical and extremist ideology? Where does it come from if not from Koran, sira and hadith?

It is correct that an Egyptian law came into effect which treats all types of female genital mutilation as a crime. Is it enforced? Hardly, if ever. The law, which was passed in 2008, was fiercely criticised by the Islamic Brotherhood and by supporters of the Egyptian parliament, who maintained that they supported the practice as “conforming to Sharia law (Islamic law) and protecting the chastity of women”. However, the Islamic Institution responsible for religious opinion (Dar al-Iftaa) responded by saying that female genital mutilation is not part of the Islamic culture.

“Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)” — ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3

What is ‘Umdat al-Salik? Cairo’s prestigious and influential Al-Azhar University certifies that it “conforms to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni Community (Ahl al-Sunna was al-Jama’a).”

Female genital mutilation in all its forms, including the most serious, like infibulation, is practiced in Egypt and in the other 27 African nations, by Muslims.

Tell me Solkhar: why does a manual of Islamic law endorsed by the foremost institution in Sunni Islam say that “circumcision” is “obligatory” for women as well as men?

Furthermore:

Umdat al-Salik itself [in English] contains an example of misleading translation.

In Nuh Ha Mim Keller’s edition, the original Arabic text is published facing the English translation. The English translation of the section on circumcision appears to be a deliberate mis-translation of the Arabic instructions for circumcising girls:

[The Arabic text] is translated by Nuh Hah Mim Keller as follows:

“Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)”

However what the Arabic actually says is:

“Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD).”

This deceptive translation obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.

So Solkhar, the pervert, defends this insane, barbaric practice like this:

“western radicals from the far-right that use supremicist, bigoted and racist attacks (albiet mostly of a poisonous subversive and information based) to attempt to create hate and division for their own ideology.”

You are not only dumb, Solkhar. You are also vile, pernicious, obsessed and deranged.

sonia August 20, 2009 at 5:55 am

Fucking mother fucker type whatever religion….. dont know what the fuck to do with woman……

Sa'eda August 23, 2009 at 12:02 am

Asalam alikum. THIS IS HORRENDUS ACT. iv read sahih hadiths and it states that only a part of the foreskin of the clitoris to be removed, and is OPTIONAL, upon the womens decision. doing so, it prevents many types of diseases, infections from bacteria lying in the folds of the skin, same as the male counterpart, with its own benefits. BUT TO CUT AWAY any other skin besides a partion part hood of the clitoris, OR MUTILATION,, well, thats completely wrong and unislamic. HOW REVOLTING AND UNHUMAN LIKE!! sick people. yuk.

sheikyermami August 23, 2009 at 6:38 am

OPTIONAL, upon the womens decision, Sa’eda?

Take a look! Take a look at the pictures of these “women”, Sa’eda. These are toddlers, babies, between one and three years old who are having their clitoris cut out!

Do you think they can make a decision?

j.doe August 23, 2009 at 7:20 pm

“Asalam alikum. THIS IS HORRENDUS ACT. iv read sahih hadiths and it states that only a part of the foreskin of the clitoris to be removed, and is OPTIONAL”

Good, so you agree, Islam does condone the practice of FGM!!Mutilation is mutilation whether it is part of it or all of it.

“upon the womens decision. doing so, it prevents many types of diseases, infections from bacteria lying in the folds of the skin,”

Not really. There is no scientific evidence or medical reports to back that up. Cleaning ones genital area is fairly straight forward for women.

besides the hadith says nothing about it being for hygiene or cleanliness purposes. That is a fabricated and poor justification for FGM.

The fact is that traditional muslims can not deny FGM in Islam without denying hadith. And you can not deny hadith without being considered an apostate. And just because a hadith may be weak does not automatically mean it should be discarded according to hadith experts. Afterall hadith were compiled and preserved for 1000 years. If there was doubt, then they should not have been included.

If citing islamic “scholars” and sources is propaganda, then by default, islam must be viewed as propaganda.

FGM is sunnah according to hadith, but not obligatory. This would be short summary of this topic.

j.doe August 23, 2009 at 7:31 pm

FGM is not in the Quran. Neither is male cirumcision by the way.

Surely Solkhar knows that Islam consists of Quran and hadith.

So what does Solkhar think of the hadith. Not one, not two, but many of them.

Does Solkhar reject hadith seeing as he insists on referring to the Quran?

When the law against FGM was passed in Egypt, streets were swamped with women yelling and screaming, that this is their right according to Sunnah and they will continue to practice this. No manmade law could prevent them.

Also worth noting is that the two previous fatwas from Al Azhar i Egypt in 1951 and 1981 each stated that female circumcision is desirable because it curbs “nature” (i.e. sexual drive among women). It stated that medical concerns over the practice are irrelevant and that parents must follow the lessons of Mohammed and not listen to medical authorities because the latter often change their minds. Parents must do their duty and have their daughters circumcised.

Maybe they changed their mind now. Or maybe they were wrong. So was the remaining Muslim world, when they failed to object these practises and fatwas. Yeah right.

Solkhar August 23, 2009 at 11:25 pm

j.doe,

I base Islam on the Qur’an and certainly like most moderates consider the haddiths to be written by men and not divinely inspired, thus we also take them for what and when they were written. It would be a grave mistake on anyone’s part to consider that all Muslims consider the haddiths to be binding and in fact they are disputed, that is why there are five main schools of Islam not to mention the difference between Sunni, Shi’ite, Sufi, Ismaili etc. The only true unifying factor is the Qur’an itself and as you put it, the circumsition reference was not in it.

I think it also important to point out, that you and most people miss, is the power of culture and tribalism world-wide. Most peoples of this world take their culture seriously especially if it dictates how one lives. The reality is that FGM is a culutural/tribal habit and it is not only done by Muslims, it is regional, not difined by religion. That cultural habit, like the treating of women, the use of the burqa are all so imbedded into communities that they automatically assume it is the religion and not their own culture. Tribalists in the mountains of Pakistan punished a girl whom was found talking to a boy without a family member by having her raped by each member of the Tribal Council, it was later condemned by EVERYONE, Imams included, the Tribal leaders claimed it was the religion, they got it wrong.

Certainly ignorance, by lack of education, access being only another ignorant whom is now an Imam are all factors that keep tribal and culturally sick and inhumane behaviour going, that is the enemy. I can understand these people in backwaters being ignorant and continuing with sick processes, so what is the excuse of the agenda based blog-owners and those that comment believing the wrong thing?

Mullah Lodabullah August 24, 2009 at 2:07 am

Your “agenda” is based on the koran, Solkhar – islam is about to pass its
use-by date in accordance with God’s “agenda”.

Speechless August 24, 2009 at 4:35 pm

If Religion is going to constantly be used to commit barbaric acts and make a mockery of our laws, then maybe its time to ban religion.

Solkhar August 24, 2009 at 5:18 pm

Speechless,

it is not religion but man. If you argue that the name of the religion is always the mistake though it is under the title of freedom of religion, then we can go into banning guns for what man has used them though there is the right to defend oneself, banning literature for the slander that is used under the name of freedom of expression and so on.

The ban should be on radicalism and extremism – the attempt to force one’s view upon another. Be it religous, political or cultural, that is the enemy and that should be thrown into the mire that it came from.

This blog-owner is a radical, so the rest you can think yourself.

Mullah Lodabullah August 24, 2009 at 6:17 pm

* This blog-owner is a radical, so the rest you can think yourself.

Speaking of slander, Solkhar, not to mention an implied threat against
him.

Solkhar August 24, 2009 at 8:12 pm

No threat nor slander – the poster has supported known biggoted sentiment which is quite radical, he has supported also radical right-wing political sentiment as well (not that I care about politics but I care about radicals turning this world upside down).

As for implied threat, there is none. Mind you, if the blog-owner is not a radical then none of this matters, but your defence is also an acknowledgement.

Mind you religious radicals, such as yourself – the ones that can instill hate on one group while selling your own faith as the “only choice” puts you in the very same category and frankly speaking, I detest your kind even more, be they from any religion, including my own. Simply because it is these whom deserve the term “religious nutjobs” that when put in power try and enforce their beliefs on others and cause repression.

Pam Toll August 27, 2009 at 10:25 pm

Your article was done with such detail, back ground and educational preference. Its time that it is noted how women today still are enslaved to old traditions that are discriminatory in every way , and still prove that women are considered second class citizens around the world. I am a US citizen and there is no laws requiring such mutiliations, but our rights as women are still surpressed in other ways. The World Health organization should call on leaders of countries where this is done and put a stop to it at once! its harmful to the womens health and mental health.. I do not suppose cutting off a childs clitorius will stablize the hormones they have no yet even developed! what a brutal practice.. I would think Religious leaders would scorn the harm being done to women in the name of God anywhere!

abdullah September 7, 2009 at 4:29 pm

In the Name of ALLAH The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
all praise is due to ALLAH the lord of the worlds and I testify that none has the right to be worshiped except ALLAH alone without partners and I testify that Mohammed is his slave and Messenger

Allah
(The One And Only True God)

SNIP for irrelevance and OT

Hindu September 14, 2009 at 6:37 pm

All your religions are based on some prophet and his book. I say Hinduism is the oldest and most peaceful religion on this earth. No one in this world can ever say that hindu’s attacked or converted people of other religious faiths. Hindu is not just a religion its a very good way of life. In us their is no compulsion to do any thing. Like we don’t have to attend the sunday mass or pray to allah 5 times a day. We say live and let live. There is no one person who is considered supreme in our religion. No pope or prophet.

Solkhar September 14, 2009 at 7:17 pm

Hindu,

the greatest number of child-brides and child-bride deaths attempting to give birth is in India. The number one country in the world for female infintacide is in India. All of them in the Hindu portions.

Nepal, an officially Hindu state has the dishonour of having the highest rate of female physical and sexual abuse with almost 1 in 3 women suffering.

With all respect to the majority of good-willed and honest hard working Hindus, please get real.

FGM September 23, 2009 at 10:26 pm

FGM has been going on since the time of pharoahs and that was mainly the pharoanic circumcision. AND ‘Sunna’means the removal of the prepuce and the tip of the clitoris. this was what the muslims did in the olden days and it wasnt done so women would not acquire pleasure from sex but actually to enhance the pleasure for them. the practice of the entire removal of the whole sex part was practise way before islam came to pass since the times of the pharaohs. Sunna also means the deeds and manner of the muslim prophet. remember there are three diffrent types of circumcision, circumcision or sunna (which the muslim prophet condoned but was also option), Excision or clitoridectomy This involves the removal of the clitoris, and often also of the labia minora. It is the most common operation and is practised throughout Africa, Asia, the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula-in this practice a woman cannot acquire orgasm.Infibulation or Pharaonic circumcision: This is the most severe operation, involving excision plus the removal of the labia majora and the sealing of the two sides, through stitching or natural fusion of scar tissue. What is left is a very smooth surface, and a small opening to permit urination and the passing of menstrual blood. This artificial opening is sometimes no larger that the head of a match.
Introcision: This form of mutilation is practised specifically by the Pitta-Patta Aborigines from Australia: When a girl reaches puberty, the whole tribe – both sexes – assembles. The operator, an elderly man, enlarges the vaginal orifice by tearing it downward with three fingers bound with opposum string. In other districts, the perineum is split with a stone knife. This is usually followed by compulsory sexual intercourse with a number of young men. Introcision is also practised in Peru, in particular among the Conibos, a division of the Pano Indians in the North-East: as soon as a girl reaches maturity, she is intoxicated and subjected to mutilation in front of her community. The operation is performed by an elderly woman, using a bamboo knife. She cuts around the hymen from the vaginal entrance and severs the hymen from the labia, at the same time exposing the clitoris. Medicinal herbs are applied followed by the insertion into the vagina of a slightly moistened penis-shaped object made of clay.

Unclassified types of FGM: includes pricking, piercing or incision of clitoris and/or labia; stretching of clitoris and/or labia; cauterisation by burning of clitoris and surrounding tissues; scraping (angurya cuts) of the vaginal orifice or cutting (gishiri cuts) of the vagina; introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina to cause bleeding or herbs into the vagina with the aim of tightening or narrowing the vagina; any other procedures which fall under the definition of FGM given above

asdf September 25, 2009 at 5:00 am

This is completely wrong against the female gender, especially the type III

anomynous September 28, 2009 at 12:39 pm

that’s all wrong and junk only boys circumcise, you can’t remove the clitoris, cuz when sexually aroused it gets filled up with blood so where will the blood go then after when you remove the clitoris and that means she won’t be feeling pleasure when having sex with her husband, in Egypt it’s legally wrong cuz there’s a lot of signs (Say No to Female Circumcision)I don’t think in Muslims it’s right too and I’m a Muslim……

CairnsKing September 28, 2009 at 2:05 pm

Anon, this site’s main focus is the negative and to run with it all the way to absolute ass end of mindless bigotry.

Rachel October 2, 2009 at 2:39 pm

This is absolutely and outrage.. How could a mother let her child go through this torture. Do people not have hearts? I don’t care if this is for religios purposes it is cruel and I could barely stomach this article while reading. Words can’t even explain the sorrow I feel for these young girls.

Sebastian Geffen October 5, 2009 at 2:14 am

Get rid of them all – Anyone who preforms this should be stopped legally in all countries for the multilation of another human-being.

There is no reason to do this kind of a thing medically at all .. its barbaric; inhumane and completely insane – I used to be inpartial to religions and generally came to the conclusions that all religions were barbaric .. all they do is lead to wars.(especially Muslims and Christians)

but this just takes the absolute title away from the Christians for being the most barbaric to its people and humanity; if you are a muslim and you think this kind of a thing is acceptable and should continue to go on – I would suggest you mutlilate yourself before others – e.g cut off your feet; legs; arms; ears; eyes … instead of mutlilating children.

let them decide when they are older if they want to mutilate themselfs – you have no choice in your life … it seems like a very sad existence for you.

I hope that in death … you find what you were hoping for/looking for all this time.

and if you don’t get it … oh well .. least you can say you mutilated children in your past life.

.. you complete psychopaths.

Natalie October 7, 2009 at 5:43 pm

No words really… This is utterly disgusting and beyond comprehension of any civilized person.

zuher October 8, 2009 at 2:50 pm

this is exactly how the media, controlled by the “new world order” apologists and proponents have distorted the facts to disgusting proportions. the facts are clear and one can simply ask any Muslim within one’s neighbourhood with regards to FGM. This game of vilification of Islam did not start today. It started way way back. How do you think they propagated 9/11? Vilify Arabs through the most innocent and unrelated media messages such as cartoons, paint a picture of an angry arab and carry our 9/11. simply to get a strong foothold into the middle east so that the “promised land” is secured. and whose name should we put forth? Osama bin Laden AKA Tim Osman, a CIA operative. It should also make you wonder, why would the most technologically advanced country not be able to catch one man running around in caves? you know why? he is sitting right there with them enjoying this whole charade. how do you think they pushed their paganist agenda through the christian world? the media. present facts and make the people believe what you want them to believe. mass hypnotism and then push the philosophy of democracy. rule of the “hypnotised, ripened” people. Simply control the world. is that not the agenda of the new world order? is not horus a pagan god that has been the emblem by which christianity was adulterated since 325AD? is not the talmud a mental conortionist product of a pannel of rabbis under pagan rule under Nebuchadnezzar? is not FGM a paganistic tribal ritual practiced in africa and other part of south east asia among tribal people? the answer to this is YES. they all are. fact remains fact. none of those pictures say or depict Islam anywhere. but for the lay believer of the “novo ordo seculorum” who are not willing to be unplugged already primed against Islam by the media, this represents Islam because they say so. Islam is a threat. a threat to the new world order propagated by Darwinist origination, sorry excuse for human beings performing mental gymnastics as they spiral down the conduit of intellectualism. I challenge anyone on this forum to deny the facts i have put forth in this post and i will stop posting otherwise i suggest you think of tearing down my post before someone else visiting this site has a look at it. Islam will not stoop down to the new world order, as christianity and judaism did under pagan rule and adulteration by the pioneering masonic state.

Z

kaw October 8, 2009 at 8:07 pm

Zuher,
The facts disagree with ALL that you have written. Firstly, your email clarifies that you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer but lets go through your email item by item,
——————————————————————————–
1) FGM is essentially a social phenomenon but justified by many muslims on islamic grounds
———————————————————————————
2) Muslim did commt 9/11. They planned the atrocity and they carried it out.
We even have their idiotic matyrdom blabs. Muslims were responsible.
————————————————————————————–
Vilify Arabs through the most innocent and unrelated media messages such as cartoons
3) Muslim rioted and caused over 500 deaths in response to those cartoons. The facts cannot be disputed – the muslims create their own bad publicity.
—————————————————————————————-
simply to get a strong foothold into the middle east so that the “promised land” is secured.
4) Ah! another muslim Israeli hater. Israel is there to stay. Curiously, Israel looks after its arab muslim population better than any of the arab muslim countries do, but that is muslim thanks for you.
—————————————————————————————-
and whose name should we put forth? Osama bin Laden AKA Tim Osman, a CIA operative.

5) Whatever name you want to use – we couldn’t care less. Usama Bin Ladin is Saudi – this is known – he was involved in Al Q terror activities – this is known (except by you) . Perhaps Tim Osman refused your advances at the waterhole and you are getting nasty – who cares!!!!!
————————————————————————————–
It should also make you wonder, why would the most technologically advanced country not be able to catch one man running around in caves?

6) Because it is very difficult to find a single individual – especially when you did not wish to resort to muslim like tactics and start killing innocent people for not telling you where the twit is. In any case – Bin Ladens main threat is through his funding and that can be easily shut of in many other ways- no need to find the idiot.
—————————————————————————————
you know why? he is sitting right there with them enjoying this whole charade.

7) No – I dont think so – actaully he is probably dead but at present it is not a concern.
—————————————————————————————
how do you think they pushed their paganist agenda through the christian world? the media. present facts and make the people believe what you want them to believe. mass hypnotism and then push the philosophy of democracy. rule of the “hypnotised, ripened” people. Simply control the world. is that not the agenda of the new world order? is not horus a pagan god that has been the emblem by which christianity was adulterated since 325AD? is not the talmud a mental conortionist product of a pannel of rabbis under pagan rule under Nebuchadnezzar? is not FGM a paganistic tribal ritual practiced in africa and other part of south east asia among tribal people?

8) Apart from the fact that what you have written is very poor English it is also logically contradictory. The vast majority of Christians (the worlds majority religion) would simply laugh at your silly assertions. You do not appear to have any point to make – so perhaps you just like screaming in frustration over your own weaknesses and inabilities (which seem to be significant)

————————————————————————————–
the answer to this is YES. they all are. fact remains fact. none of those pictures say or depict Islam anywhere. but for the lay believer of the “novo ordo seculorum” who are not willing to be unplugged already primed against Islam by the media, this represents Islam because they say so. Islam is a threat. a threat to the new world order propagated by Darwinist origination,

9) What you have written here is complete rubbish! It is clear that you do not
understand Darwinian evolution. Idiots like you who understand neither your religion nor the work of Darwin claim a conflict between both in order to excuse your own stupidity and lack of mental capability. The conflict does not exist except within YOUR narrow and false interpretations of religion. You are not intelligent – what gives you the right to speak for others. You have neither the capacity , the skill, or the learning.
————————————————————————————–
sorry excuse for human beings performing mental gymnastics as they spiral down the conduit of intellectualism. I challenge anyone on this forum to deny the facts i have put forth in this post and i will stop posting otherwise

10) you have been challenged – all of what you have written is rubbish.
And don’t threaten.

————————————————————————————–
i suggest you think of tearing down my post before someone else visiting this site has a look at it. Islam will not stoop down to the new world order, as christianity and judaism did under pagan rule and adulteration by the pioneering masonic state.

11) Christianity and Judaism adapted to new knowledge and to the growth of humankind – neither stooped to anyone or anything. islam cannot do this and it is nothing. The amusing thing is that what you believe makes islam stróng is exactly what will destroy it.
—————————————————————————————-
Do post again!!!!

Husler Kruger October 8, 2009 at 9:16 pm

The circumcision of the female clitorial hood is a normal practice , even today, in the so called civilized, modernized western countries. They called it ‘Clitorial Unhooding’ or ‘Clitoral Circumcision’ or Hoodectomy. It is for sexual/cosmetic purpose. Search the web for more info. It was practiced during the time of Muhammad, but since everything about Islam is bad, it is labelled as ‘Female Genital Mutilation’ in the muslim world, (although many of the muslim nations practiced the cosmetic Hoodectomy). Don’t confuse this with the FGM performed in many parts of Africa, the tradition that existed even before Islam. But these christians would throw everything into the face of Islam as you already know.

kaw October 8, 2009 at 9:26 pm

Husler,
The simple fact is that islam is used to justify female circumcision by some muslims. Yes – many aspects of islam are bad. If you have a bee in your bonnet about Christianity or any other religion then keep it to yourself – no one else is really interested.

zuher October 9, 2009 at 12:04 am

Kaw,
Yours well noted. I would suggest that you don’t fret inter alia with my command of the English language or my sharpness. Either way, the former doesn’t make you a professor in English neither the latter primes you to facing a ‘shaper knife’ akin to one ripe for his/her own circumcision. But that is all beside the point. As much as would love to dive into your defense (or offense as you would see it), it makes for very shallow reading, a dry pool of sorts, if you know what I mean. Your harangue goes nowhere into proving anything you have alleged i.e. FGM in Islam as a proven practice, or whatever you have defended against i.e. horus adulteration, Talmud contortion, 9/11 being an inside job or even the “novo ordo seculorum”. I would suggest you have a closer look at history and get a grip over yourself, while you buckle up and read on the council of nicea and the pagan king who oversaw the writing of the bible in 325AD. A great favour he did I must say. One day human and next day Christ turns divine. Just like horus, the Egyptian pagan god. He only got the math wrong though while trying to live up to the number of days Jonah stayed in the belly of the whale. I would love to see the mental acrobatics to fit this square peg in a round hole. I dare say the greatest story ever TOLD suddenly becomes the greatest story ever SOLD. Do kindly check, I implore you before you shoot your mouth off and replay the foot in the mouth trick more often than not, which of course becomes inversely proportional to any good it does to you with increase in frequency of the trick. The same goes with pagan uncle Nebuchadnezzar and his 300 rabbi round table who wrote and rewrote the Talmud to ensure Judaism went the way of the dodo as well oops..say the way of the bible. Wasn’t the Torah the book of the Jews? But of course the only way to get this message across and create a mass following was to make the book the most published book in the world. Get your message across and control the masses. The greatest story ever TOLD becomes the greatest story ever SOLD.

Now comes the matter of 9/11. Do your research lad/lass, the fact is there is growing number of US citizens, and indeed the world over, accepting that this was an inside job through the CIA operative made famous by the name of OBL aka Tim Osman. Do please check on his family business ties with senior Bush. But you are one of those products of the new secular order who just can’t live without being plugged to the system. You got front row seats to the show, I might add. The media has provided the most distorted of facts for you to digest and accept as true and indeed you follow like the obedient child mutatis mutandis. Once again a story told, becomes a story sold. Is it that difficult for the US to find one man after all these years of occupation and torture of afghan and Iraqi civilians? Oh yes and we did indeed visualize the WMD that they found in Iraq. Once again they sold you IQ deprived individuals with a story of WMD and entered Iraq. Lovely. Once again, a story told..a story sold.

Now comes the matter of “novo ordo seculorum”, the catch phrase on the ass (behind) the dollar note. Remember your friend horus. He is fabled to have one eye. The eye became a symbol among pagans as a representation of the Sun god, horus who was killed and resurrected after 3 days. You gotta see the eye in the dollar. The pyramid, and then above it the all seeing eye. Pagan Egyptian tinge don’t you think? And with this ancient symbol, the inscription “novo ordo seculorum”. New with the old??? How so? A new world order. I wonder what this new world order has to with the US “watch dog of the world” and “push our philosophies down other’s throats” firm policies? There must be a connection… lol. You gotta be blind not to see it. This is indeed laughable. You also have to the stars of USA on the court of arms forming a shape of the Israeli star of David. Then join the dots to the current scenario in the Middle East and the silence of USA as israel continues with its settlement expansion with total disregard to UN resolutions. The establishment of the new world order under the watchful eye of the pagan god horus, the sun god, in whose honour Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25, and of course go to church on Sun-day while Jesus observed Sabbath. This is the new world order, ‘novo ordo seculorum’. Establishment of a new world order with its seat in the Promised Land (gosh even Microsoft word is asking me to capitalize the phrase Promised Land) between the river Nile and the river Euphrates. The latter in Iraq. Observe, asinine little human, the 1947 map of the world, the 1967 map of the world and the current map of the world, and squint one eye..lol..on Israel. Observe the seat of the new world order. Sell the public the falsified bad face of arabs and Islam and take over the middle east.

Now to the matter of FGM. A close observation will show you, if you not that blind, that the ritual was practiced by the pagans, as it is today. Islam outlawed the practice. However, Islam didn’t remain safe, well atleast to the extent of its books of hadeeth. They infiltrated there too and put their filthy FGM propagating hadeeth. Why? It would too shameful to express that as part of the new world order. It would go against female emancipation. So throw the dirt right at the feet of the Muslims and use the media, as was done on the war on terror and WMD to sell…ooops..tell another story. Create mass hysteria and mass following, after all 60% of the media is controlled by the Jews. Oh by the way CBS fox emblem..the all seeing eye of the sun god horus. You, the unplugged one didn’t wanna remain too far behind papa roach, so enter this website and a fortiori, post all those pictures none of which have any link or justification of being Muslim, match them with adulterated hadeeth and show the public what you want them to see. Sell or tell another story.

Facts are Islam started with one man, Muhammad PBUH and in 1400 years we are one and half billion. We are growing at a rate of 12 million annually. You will hear the adhan, the call for prayer, 5 times aday wherever you go till the day your wretched self auto-implodes. Islam will not let “novo ordo secluorum” strip this world of the belief in God, as has already been done with Christianity and Judaism. This story, my little insolent friend, won’t sell, even if you lose your voice telling it.
Lol… I find you quite below debating forte… get me something/ someone better to debate with. Get me papa roach..I have had enough with the maggots. I have effectively put you naked for public viewing.

SM October 9, 2009 at 2:43 am

Zuher,
There are no unified religions.
the new world order could care less about religion,
they don’t care how many people will die because of
disasters, disease, deceit, hunger and wars.
The coming dictator will abolish all religion and replace it
with his personal cult worship.
Only YHWH will destroy it all and establish the real
Qahal YHWH on earth.

zuher October 9, 2009 at 7:04 am

SM,
The coming dictator, you say? Nay, my friend, the dictator hath cometh. i would also beg to differ with your view that the NWO could care less about religion. No. They want to strip this world of the belief in God, whatever the religion. I am happy that you have hope in God and profess faith in a religion. Use that, and see what is happening around you. Observe and lets talk again soon.

Zuher

zuher October 9, 2009 at 8:24 am

—————————————————————————————-
FGM September 23, 2009 at 10:26 pm

FGM has been going on since the time of pharaohs and that was mainly the pharoanic circumcision.
the practice of the entire removal of the whole sex part was practice way before islam came to pass since the times of the pharaohs
Infibulation or Pharaohs circumcision: This is the most severe operation, involving excision plus the removal of the labia majora and the sealing of the two sides, through stitching or natural fusion of scar tissue. What is left is a very smooth surface, and a small opening to permit urination and the passing of menstrual blood. This artificial opening is sometimes no larger that the head of a match.
—————————————————————————————-
In fact, look at the above post on this very thread. lol…the poor guy, an apologist of the conspiracy actually confirms that the practice was pharoanic in origin… and then think of the pyramid and the all seeing eye on the US dollar note, the sun god horus and his connection with Christianity, the pagan Constantine!!! Now we know whose filth this practice was in the ancient world and currently in the modern age and who is being used as a scape goat. Utterly asinine and inane. i would call this the ultimate foot in the mouth trick, par excellence…

i maintain kaw, you’re all braggadocio and no brain. a bag of hot air, full of personal insults and very a very “don’t trip over me” IQ..lol. Give me someone better.

zuher

kaw October 9, 2009 at 8:45 am

Zaher,
You are incorrect – do you ever get anything right??? Stop wasting space and others peoples energy.

Your command of the English language is poor, and you are not terribly bright. Your emails support this conclusions. Enough said.

Many muslims use the Quran to justify FGM or whatever else you wish to call this rather inappropriate practise. QED

There is no evidence whatsoever that supports your idiotic statements that 9/11 was an inside job – none what so ever. The only evidence that supports your idiotic claim exists inside your mind – and that is certainly fabricated and flawed.

As regards Iraq, the possible motivator for the destruction of Saadam was the lack of evidence that WMD had been destroyed. Chemical weapons were known to have been used against his population. Not finding then was never the issue – the lack of evidence that they had been destroyed was. I do not expect you to understand this rather simple point.

Most of the rest of your post seems to be based on your personal interpretation of rather opaque writings that can, indeed, be interpreted in many ways. Thea are not worth a reply. You demonstrate an inability to appreciate that most of these writings are not intended to be interpreted literally. As a mosque-dwelling quran indoctrinated idiot you are unlikely to be able to interpret anything than in other the most literal interpretations possible.

One gets the impression that you feel that you are intelligent – you are not – you are, in fact, an idiot. However, you are a dangerous idiot – someone has taught you and you have only partially understood what you have been taught. As regards your religion, you are not the majority religion – your over-estimated growth figures refer only to the unconstrained birth rates in third world countries, which are principally third world because they are muslim. The single reason why muslim growth rates are non-zero in western countries is because of unrestricted immigration – which will be ended soon enough.

You have exposed nothing except your own stupidity and ignorance. I will also add intolerance. Do write again little cockroach – an sincere apololgy to cockroaches for equating you with this poisonous little muslim moron.

Do write again!!!! Oh. and muslims have a bad name because of their actions – and for no other reason.

altay October 10, 2009 at 1:57 am

I’m from turkey and i’m not a muslim but i definitely know there is no such thing like this barbarism in islam. Maybe circumcision is a must for muslim MEN but FEMALE circumcision is just the primitivity itself. There is no rule about it and if there is, it’s sure to be fake. Qur’an or Muhammed or any such islamic source does not urge people to do something like that. Disgustingly primitive. Ignorance couldn’t be more harmful. This is just horrible.

SM October 10, 2009 at 2:34 am

Zuher
Who do you think IS the great dictator?
NWO don’t care about religion in this respect; if you have a religion;
fine, you are out of our way. if you don’t have one; fine, but stay out
of our way. they can deal with contradictions.
the great deceiver will certainly try to strip the world from faith in god
(about that we agree) and enforce worship of false idols.
In a way i don’t believe in religions because they all have too many
problems within. moreover the systemizing can’t save anyone,
i believe in YHWH and personal choice for relation through His Spirit
in Yeshua, covered by His Malak under His Kabod, but i know that
Judaism, Christianity and Islam don’t agree with me in this matter.
I sincerly hope and pray for the good of all men and women, but
honestly the future doesn’t look good at all, the way things are going right now; more than 6 billion people won’t be part of the Qahal YHWH,
The problem is that everybody knows better these days.

sheikyermami October 10, 2009 at 8:19 am

So you are from Turkey and you are not a Muslim?

And you ‘definitely know’ that there is no such thing like this barbarism that has been documented in great detail? Did you even bother to read the article and check the links and references?

And tell us please, if you are not, like you are telling us, a muslim, then how would you know that “Qur’an or Muhammed or any such islamic source does not urge people to do something like that?”

kaw October 10, 2009 at 12:03 pm

Altay,
Whether the practice is discussed in the quran is not relevant. The point is that the practice is justified by many muslims on the basis of their religion. As are a great many other things that one can only call evil – i.e. murder of non-muslims, suppression of reason etc etc. So, hard comment against islam is deserved.

kaw October 10, 2009 at 12:24 pm

ah zuher,
You illustrate your stupidity to a degree that even your most potent adversary could not achieve (LOL). I suggest that you put your keyboard away before you shoot yourself in the foot again (LOL).

On a serious note, you are a person with little intellect. You have not provided any meaningful discussion in your rather poorly written emails – stop wasting
our time and do something meaningful for a change.

shafi November 6, 2009 at 10:19 pm

Removing somebody’s body part without their prior consent,justifying it with lame reason of being infant that toddler cannot take decision hence parents have full rights to the childs body. Certainly not!!!
There are fews things, i wud just like to mention without any mutilation stats
1. Let the individual undergo reading scipture himself/herself.
2. Let him/her decide whether they would like to mutilate their genitals.
3.Educate them about cleanliness.
One can purely maintain the chastisity with/without removal of parts.

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