Disheartening, to say the least: ABC moonbat Monica Allard interviews Europe’s bravest politician, but in typical fashion can’t resist to smear him: he “plays hate-politics”, Â and theÂ aggressive, criminal Muslims in the Netherlands are “marginalized”-(see how many times you can find the word “marginalized”)Â its all our fault, of course!
Â Monica: may the burka rest lightly on your shoulders!
For a Maltese, or rather for an Australian with a rich Â Maltese heritage, this women is an insult to her forebears. Were it not for them she would be forgotten in some sultan’s harem, or fetching water from the well for a Muslim goat-herder. The airheads who call themselves journalists never cease to amaze me….
Hello Monica Attard here with Sunday Profile
Â Â Â Â Â well, Europe’s Christian Democrats are licking their wounds – in the elections last week to the European Parliament, voters decided to punish their national governments – instead voting for the extreme left and right. Amongst the winners – our guest; the most talked about politician in Europe – Geert Wilders.
Like it or not, in the election last week European Union wide, for members of the European Parliament, 17 per cent of the Dutch vote went to that country’s Party for Freedom, led by Geert Wilders. It garnered the second highest vote in the Netherlands after the ruling Christian Democrats.
Wilders was already very well known to the Dutch because of his film – Fitna – a very heavy handed piece of anti Islam propaganda which no TV station in Europe would broadcast -though it ended up being widely viewed on the internet.
* What an absurd, idiotic statement! “Fitna, a heavy handed piece of anti Islam propaganda which no TV station in Europe would broadcast”- Â Fitna is not ‘heavy handed’ and Â even less a ‘propaganda piece’- its simply connects the dots, and that is what the liberal progressives, the multiculti brigades and the ‘One World under Socialism’ moonbats can’t stand. We all know why “Fitna” was not broadcast, and its a disgrace for the cowards in the media. Just like theÂ phonyÂ excuses used in the case of the Muhammad cartoons. Why do we allow the weakest wimps in our society to decide what we’re allowed to see and what not?
But in last week’s election, his party campaigned to ban the Koran – because Wilders thinks it’s worse than Mein Kampf. He told the Dutch that Muslims who break the law should be immediately deported and he told them, that Europe’s hate laws should be abolished. He also told them that the European Union should just be a trading bloc with no power to tell any of its 27 member states what to do – especially on the question of immigration.
Wilders’ party has become not only the second most popular party in the Netherlands, quite possibly Europe’s most tolerant nation, it snapped up 5 seats in the European Parliament – not many considering there are 785 seats altogether.
But he says his party’s undiluted voice will be heard and when you consider the wave of anti Islamic sentiment sweeping across Europe – in France they’re debating whether to ban the Burka – that voice just might strike a chord.
So what will Wilders do with his popularity? Is he the voice of real discontent or is he just playing hate politics?
* “Hate politics!”- Wilders “plays hate-politics!” We can’t be haters. That’s a no no. Pointing out that Muslims are religiously obliged to hate us makes us “haters”. Inverted reality, suicidal stupidity. Hopeless.
But first, was Geert Wilders at all surprised by the European Parliamentary election result?
Geert Wilders: A little bit, I was not surprised that my party had a good result, but I didn’t expect it to be this good because at European elections, only very few people; one out of three Dutchmen went to vote and our party always has the benefit if a lot of people go to vote.
So to have such a result, 17 per cent of the vote and becoming the second party of the Netherlands was indeed with such a low outcome of people going to vote, a very surprising but very good result.
Monica Attard: Now you’ve won a seat in the EU yourself, but I understand that you don’t want to take up that seat do you?
Geert Wilders: No we have party lister systems so I was number 10 just because I was famous here in Holland I told any voters before already months ago that I would not take my seat ever I was elected with a lot of votes, so other people will go and I will stay on the bench parliament because it’s not possible to combine. You are not allowed to be both at the same time, a member of national parliament and a member of the European parliament.
Monica Attard: Now you said that your party’s undiluted voice will now be heard in the European parliament. Can you just tell us what will your undiluted voice be telling the European parliament?
Geert Wilders: Yes, well first we want our money back. The Dutch, pay the most to Europe, the four billion Euros a year which is a lot of money here and it’s mostly spent to subsidise farmers in Poland and in France or to build new highways in Romania or Portugal and as you know, also in Holland, like the rest of the world we have an economical crisis here now so we want to spend this four billion a year in the Dutch economy.
Second, we want to have our interims back, we are not against Europe, we don’t want the Netherlands to leave the European Union but we want it to be like it started, economical co-operation organisation and all the other things that don’t have to do with economy or monetary issues should go back to the capitals of the member states.
And thirdly, we were the only party in Holland that said that we would never want and allow when it’s up to us to join Turkey as a member state of the European Union as you know there are now negotiations going with Turkey, we want them to be stopped.
Monica Attard: And so what chance do you have in reality of achieving any of those three things?
Geert Wilders: Well of course it’s a combination because some decisions we have to fight for in the Dutch Parliament, when the ministers and the governments have to decide in the European Council of Ministers then we can have influence here in the Dutch parliament which might be stronger but at the same time, and this is the advantage now, we also have a voice in Europe.
And of course having four or maybe even five seats in the European parliament where there are more than 700 members of the European Parliament it is a tough job. But still I mean we have our voice, we are the second largest party of the Netherlands in the European Union which is still only four or five out of 700, I realise that.
But the combination of a new voice in Europe and a strong party in the Netherlands, I don’t think is one we can achieve because now we are as you perhaps know an opposition party but we are becoming stronger every day so it’s difficult for the ruling political elite to ignore our sound as they almost did until today.
Monica Attard: Now as you mentioned, 785 members of the European parliament, what chance is there that you’re going to find other voices in that parliament that go along with some quite radical views of the party?
Geert Wilders: I don’t think I have radical views, if I would have radical views I would be at the margin of the Dutch politics – we are not. In some polls we are even the largest party of the Netherlands, so some consider it radical, but the Dutch public and I believe that in elections, the voter is always right, and not millions of people would have voted for us if there would be elections today in the Netherlands if we would be radical.
I think that if we had good proposals, others will support it, like we will do if others have good proposals, we will support it too. And if not, well I am happy to live in a democracy where people can differ, that’s why we have different parties, so we have to fight and we have to do our best and our utmost to get more support and for any party.
Whether it’s my party or another party with even less seats from Holland and the European parliament it will be difficult to always get their way and maybe for others even more difficult, you are right there because I don’t think what we are proposing is radical, but it’s new and it’s not politically correct, indeed.
But a lot of people if you look at the European parliament you see in almost any country that the social democrats, at the leftist parties, they lost – they lost in England, they lost in France, they lost in Germany, they lost in many European countries they lost so…
Monica Attard: Okay Mr Wilders, now let’s just have a little bit of a look at why people in the Netherlands are voting for your party.
Presumably you’re anti-immigration stance is attractive to a lot of people?
Geert Wilders: Yes, this is very true, not only the immigration but also the integration, we have a lot of problems with immigration, there’s is mass immigration coming to Europe and the demography’s also not in the advantage of the Indigenous people here.
We have nothing against Muslims whatsoever, we have nothing against people but we fear as many people do, the influx and the enormous growth of the Islamisation of our continent and we believe that once again, not the people, I believe the people can change – can integrate, but the Islam is a religion according to us that is very difficult to integrate in a society that wants to at the end of the day, submit us and dominate instead of integrate.
Monica Attard: But why do you say that they want to dominate? I’m interested to know what is happening in the Netherlands that so alarms you about your Muslim population?
Geert Wilders: If you look at the facts, if you look at all the statistics, you see that non western people often from countries like Morocco and Turkey that we have a lot of immigrants from in my country, you see that in all those statistics, they are over-represented many, many times when it comes to crime, when it comes to prison population, when it comes to illiteracy, when it comes to dependency on social benefit and so we have really a lot of problem there.
We see also in the second biggest city of the Netherlands, Rotterdam; you see that in three years time, the majority will be from non-western backgrounds. You see in the same city and most of the south, the biggest city in Holland that for instance, 55 per cent of the Moroccan youth under the age of 24 have been in contact with the police. You see that there are more mosques being built than churches, you see that once again the Dutch people are tolerant, they are not racist, they are nothing like that at all. But they fear for their identity of their own country, they feel that the government is not fighting for our traditional values.
Monica Attard: Do they understand perhaps that overrepresentation in terms of crime might in fact be a result of their own marginalisation and marginalisation by people who might not want them there?
* The usual lefty drivel: give them what they want and they will be quiet../ed)
Geert Wilders: No I don’t think that’s the reason, I mean a lot of people find those kind of reasons and even people say no it’s because of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict or it’s because of whatever. But in the Netherlands I don’t think it’s so much different as in Australia. If you really want to make something of it that is not a problem and I also know that lot of Muslims in Holland, the majority, we have no problem with. They are law abiding people, they work they have a job. I’m only saying that their overrepresentation, all the wrong statistics is growing. It’s a minority, it’s not a majority of the people, but if you want to achieve in Holland, if you want to get an education you can get an education, if you want to find a job, you can find a job. There is nothing here that makes it difficult for those kind of people to have a normal life and unfortunately this is not happening.
You will see that policemen are being harassed, you see that bus drivers will have a knife on their throats for no reason. You see that women on the streets are being shouted at as if they are whores. You see that homosexuals in the gay city of the world once; Amsterdam, are beaten up regularly by Moroccan youth. So it’s not even an opinion, the facts are really there and people are fed up with that.
And the government, the political elite is being politically correct and is unfortunately ignoring the problem. So my success is partly because we speak out in a normal way, but partly also because the ruling parties are ignoring the problem.
Monica Attard: But is it possible as well that you have all of these problems because these groups feel completely marginalised by some of the statements which you would have to agree I’m sure are anti-Islam sentiments. I mean one of your more controversial ideas is that you want to ban the holy book of Islam; the Koran. I mean do you not see that if you call for the Koran to be banned, that people might take that as an offence?
Geert Wilders: I mean this proposal was from one year ago and all the statistics I mentioned already are from the last decade so there cannot really be a connotation between that. And let me make you understand why that is proposal, not only because the Koran is the book of incitement of violence, but more importantly to make a point against the left and the liberals in the Netherlands who unlike probably Australia, in the Netherlands the book Mein Kampf was banned, something like 20-25 years ago and at that time the leftist and the liberal politicians in Holland applauded that. They thought because it was a book full of incitement of violence and it was a terrible book Mein Kampf, they were happy at the time that it was banned.
So my point was to the left and the liberals in Holland that if you really applauded it 20 years ago in the Netherlands, the outlawing of Mein Kampf, you could easily do the same for a book that is even as bad or maybe even worse than is Mein Kampf. So this is my point and in the Dutch context there were some double standards because they shouted at me that how did I dare.
Monica Attard: But Mein Kampf is a book of political ideology and the Koran surely is not a book of political ideology is it?
Geert Wilders: It is. I’m very glad that you asked this question because I believe that Islam is more an ideology than a religion like many professors, like Professor Fromerlin from Belgium wrote many books about that. Of course it has religious aspects, it has a temple it has a holy book, it has a god. But I believe because according to me, Islam once again wants to not only dominate one person’s life, but Islam is a concept for in the whole society and it wants to rule a whole society as the Koran and many surah’s states that there is no room for Kafirs or anything else than Muslims.
So I believe that the Islam, even though it partly, might have parts of a religion should not be compared to other religions but should be compared to other totalitarian ideologies, like communism or like fascism. I mean this is once again…
Monica Attard: But that’s your view, I mean do you…
Geert Wilders: It’s not only my view, in the 50’s Winston Churchill wrote a book for which he got a Nobel Prize of literature where Winston Churchill compared Mein Kampf with the Koran like Oriana Fallacy; a famous writer and like Charles de Gaulle. I’m not the first one who compared it and said it was more ideology than a religion.
Monica Attard: But I guess the point I’m trying to make though is if Muslims living in the Netherlands hear you say that they will take offence, they will feel marginalised, and if people feel marginalised they tend to do things that the rest of society won’t approve of.
Geert Wilders: As I say, I always say and I say it almost every interview and also in parliament that if people, if Muslims… other people for that reason, if they adhere and if they comply to our laws to our constitution and to our values, they are not only welcome to stay but they are as equal as anybody else and we will even help them to integrate in our societies.
Monica Attard: But if they don’t, if they contravene your laws, one of your ideas is that European Muslims should be deported, is that right?
Geert Wilders: Not only European, but certainly also Dutch. And that if you once again have every chance and we pay for your education and we do everything, and you even get housing and social benefits and if you work for that and if you integrate or assimilate in our societies like in many other certainly Anglo-Saxon countries happens without such a wealth of status we have. So if you do, if you have an incentive to do something, make something of your life, then you are very welcome, you are equal and nothing will happen. But if you indeed start committing crimes, become violent or want to install Sharia or play Jihad or anything like that, we believe that there is no room for you in the Netherlands.
You are very welcome if you adhere to our societies to stay, but if you don’t, if you cross the red line of violence indeed I think it’s very normal. I think many other countries in the world use that principle and then you will be extradited from the Netherlands.
Monica Attard: And stripped of their nationality as well?
Geert Wilders: Only if you have a double nationality of course if people are only Dutch you cannot – we will not do that. But a lot of people in the Netherlands once again don’t forget the Dutch contacts, have 90 per cent of the Moroccans in the Netherlands which is one of the biggest groups also have a Moroccan nationality and then for that reason you could do that.
Like the Dutch government already does if I may add. It’s not the principle it’s not new, the Dutch government also uses this principle to strip somebody from the Dutch nationality if they have a double nationality for terrorists.
Monica Attard: And what if they don’t have double nationality? What about those who are born in the Netherlands?
Geert Wilders: A lot of them also have Moroccan nationality.
Monica Attard: But what if they don’t?
Geert Wilders: If they don’t of course we will not extradite them. It is not possible. They are Dutch and they are as equal as anybody else. We want them as also all the Dutch people unfortunately also make crimes, they will be punished.
Monica Attard: Does this view also apply for example to other nationalities or other religious groups? I mean are you prepared to say you know…
Geert Wilders: Of course…no of course. I mean we are against double nationality, we use the same if somebody commits a crime and he has Dutch nationality and also a Swedish nationality or an Australian nationality, we will do exactly the same there is no difference and no discrimination between any groups.
Only in reality we don’t have problems in the Netherlands with Swedish criminals or Australian criminals; we have with Moroccan and Turkish criminals.
Monica Attard: So fundamentally what you’re arguing then is that Islam and the western way of life, basically cannot co-exist – they’re foes.
Geert Wilders: The people can, you know. I make a difference between the ideology and the people. I believe in people. I believe that people are able to integrate and to assimilate but I don’t believe there is a moderate Islam, I don’t believe there is a European Islam and so I think we should forget about thinking or dreaming about Islam ever changing and we should invest in the people and I want to invest in the people and tell everybody like I said and even help people if you integrate, if you adhere into our society you are welcome to stay. But if you don’t, if you really look or want to work according to and act according to this book the Koran then indeed at that moment you will have a difficulty in Holland.
So invest in the people help the people but don’t invest in working towards a moderate Islam for that will never be possible.
Monica Attard: So have you achieved anything so far? You personally as a politician in the Netherlands, to in concrete political terms, to find a political solution to some of these problems that you talk about?
Geert Wilders: We are an opposition party but I think that even our biggest enemies in parliament and out of parliament will say that even though we have no power at all because we are in opposition, we have an enormous influence. You see that the government is even though they are reluctant to do what we want, is changing their tune. You see other parties that are either using a copycat principle, not because they like us so much, because they know they are losing voters to us.
A motion was passed in the Netherlands parliament from my hand that said that the burka should be banned in the Netherlands. I believe we are the first country in the world where such a resolution was passed. Unfortunately the government did not fulfil it, but we got a majority in parliament.
Monica Attard: How is the government though changing its tune? Can you give me more concrete examples?
Geert Wilders: Unfortunately once again when it comes to the concrete measures, they are not. But they are all looking in our directions and they are saying that indeed perhaps the immigration should be toughened indeed, maybe the penalties we have a lot of discussion in the Netherlands in the parliament today. Indeed there is so much crime that we should be more tough and have bigger crimes. And well once again like I said before they changed the law for the denaturalisation, but only for terrorist and we want to expand it to others.
This would have been impossible 10 years ago that a government of Christian democrats and social democrats made a law that people would be stripped of their nationality when you have double nationality when they commit a crime. And I’m unhappy with that because it’s only for terrorists and I want it also for other crimes, but it’s a first step.
But all those things would not have been possible if my party would not have been existent.
Monica Attard: Now I’m sure you’ve heard this criticism before Mr Wilders, but it does sound like a rampant populist race for votes that you have a party that is saying the things that you’re saying and then a government that begins to mouth the same things. Do you understand why people would think that?
Geert Wilders: People can say about me what they want, I am used to it by now, I live in the 24 hour protection already for five years, I have fatwa’s death threats, I’m used to that. But it’s an insult for the Dutch people and our voters, once again if we really would be like that, we would be at the margin of the Dutch politics. To be in the polls the number one, the biggest party in Holland to be in a real election two weeks ago, the number two party out of an 11 party system it would be impossible if people would see us and if we would be radical or populist or racist or whatsoever. We are not and the Dutch people don’t see us like that and if they would see us like that we would have once per cent of the vote and not 17 per cent of the vote.
Monica Attard: Now as you mentioned, your views have made you a target. Tell me a little bit about how you get around these days because you have received numerous death threats and you do have around the clock police protection don’t you?
Geert Wilders: Yes, already almost for five years now. It started in October 2004 and well my wife and I we lived for protection in prison cells and army barracks and I don’t know where any place that they took us. I always have security everywhere I go, anytime I go.
So in the process I lost my freedom, something you don’t wish your worst enemy to have and that’s not especially in your personal life, it’s a hell of a job.
But still I mean I have a mission, I believe in what I do, I get more support every day so I cannot say it’s worth it. But at least you learn how to live with it.
Monica Attard: Do you believe that somebody will you know mount an attack on you? A successful attack?
Geert Wilders: I don’t know. I was speaking in the Danish parliament last Sunday and when I came outside some women threw I don’t know if it was blood or some red substance to me and fortunately the police took it and not me. And this was only blood or paint or whatever, it could have been something else, I don’t know. I know that the chances are always there that something happens, of course I hope it will not happen.
And it’s also from abroad, from a more serious Al-Qaida link organisation that want to do something nasty with me. I can only hope and pray that it won’t happen to me as it should not happen to anybody else. At least if you don’t agree with me, go into a debate with me, write an article, do whatever you like. But I hope people use democratic means as it should be in a democracy to fight me. And unfortunately the threats are real, they are realistic from inside Holland and from abroad from Al-Qaida linked organisations and of course I hope they are only threats and they will not be fulfilled.
Monica Attard: Which Al-Qaida organisation is making threats against you?
Geert Wilders: I’m not inventing it myself in the way that the Dutch government or the Dutch secret service, they decide what the threat level is to me and they decide whether I need protection or not. If I would ask tomorrow for half the protection or double the protection, it would be ignored and rightfully so. They tell me mostly what is happening, they don’t tell me any details. I know some of it, but I don’t know any details, and the details I do know I cannot tell you.
Monica Attard: Because your country of course has a very rich history of political assassination doesn’t it? I mean there’s Pim Fortuyn quite recently; he campaigned for an end to Dutch multiculturalism. Theo Van Gough the film maker who denounced Islamic repression. That all must play on your mind?
Geert Wilders: Of course, this is very unfortunate that it happened to those people in the Netherlands before and most of my threats I don’t know if it’s good or bad news, probably bad news, are of course also coming from the Netherlands but the most serious ones are coming from abroad.
Monica Attard: Now you’ve lost an appeal to stop charges being laid against you, your hate speech for instance inciting racial hatred.
Geert Wilders: Yes.
Monica Attard: Do you think that prosecution will go ahead?
Geert Wilders: It certainly will go ahead. As you know the public prosecutor in Holland decided not to prosecute me after a year of getting advice and thinking about it. So last year they decided not to prosecute me and I was very happy with that.
But unlike in Australia and other Anglo-Saxon countries, in Holland we have a position in our penal code that says if you made a complaint with the police and the public prosecutor decides not to prosecute you that you can appeal. So people appealed in the Court of Appeal in Amsterdam and unfortunately for me they overruled the decision of the public prosecutor and they audited the public prosecutor’s office to take me to court to prosecute me.
I went to the High Court because I thought for formal reasons it was the wrong decision and I lost that case as well. So later this year I will be subpoenaed and I will have to defend myself.
Monica Attard: What do you imagine the result might be?
Geert Wilders: I am confident because I know I’ve done nothing wrong at least according to me, but I agree it’s up to a judge to decide. But I don’t see any reason why I should not be acquitted of any charges.
Monica Attard: And of course if you’re convicted you will presumably lose your seat in the parliament of the Netherlands?
Geert Wilders: I will not lose my seat but once again if I would be sentenced which I don’t believe and very few people believe, it would be a suspension or a fine or something like that. That’s what happens in Holland if a politician would be brought to jail.
Monica Attard: Ok a couple of final questions Mr Wilders if I might. You were banned from entering Great Britain to show your anti-Islam film ‘Fitna’ to the House of Commons.
Geert Wilders: Yes.
Monica Attard: There was great concern that your attacks on Islam would be destabilising in a pluralistic society. Do you see the point that the British were trying to make?
Geert Wilders: No not at all and I showed Fitna in the US Senate where I was a guest of Senator Cowell who was number three of the republican, the chief minority worked from the republican in the US Senate. And I was allowed to come there and show Fitna and have a debate.
I was allowed in the Danish parliament and in Italy and many other countries. So luckily most of the countries I am received well inside and outside parliament by many important politicians and unfortunately the United Kingdom was the only country that decided that I would threaten community harmony and therefore public security.
That was the wrong decision and was not copied by the United States and many other countries in the world where I am very welcome to come and show Fitna and to speak.
Monica Attard: Why do you think that the United States for example was less cautious than Great Britain?
Geert Wilders: Because they have the first amendment, they have freedom of speech. And as long as you don’t cross the line of incitement of violence I think democracy with the rule of law and a civil society and the way to deal with different opinions is to have a debate unless you incite to violence. Then you should be punished, I fully agree with that. I never do that and I never will do that, it’s disgusting to only think about violence.
So I speak my mind, if you forbid opinions, if you get politicians or others to court or to jail for their opinion when it’s not incitement of violence, you will get it underground, you will get it. I mean it will be a very nasty society. So if you don’t agree with me, come and debate me, this is want I wanted to do in London. I was not planning to demonstrate in the streets of London, I was invited by a member of the house of law who was a colleague of mine, a parliamentarian from the United Kingdom, to have a debate with people who disagree with me or people who agree with me. This is how it should work in an open democracy, we should fight each other in parliament and society, not before the court.
Monica Attard: Have you ever wanted to come to Australia?
Geert Wilders: Actually I was invited to come to Australia this year by an organisation in Perth in Western Australia. So mostly probably later this year I could very well be visiting Australia.
Monica Attard: Do you expect that you might have the same problems getting a visa to come to Australia that you had in Great Britain?
* Under a KRudd government that is highly likely…/ed)
Geert Wilders: I hope not. Once again I travel a lot and I have never in any country experienced anything that happened to me in the United Kingdom. So I hope also in Australia they know about freedom of speech and they know that the second biggest party of Holland is not a racist or extremist party, it’s just a democratic party that millions of people are voting for and at least let me tell you what I think and if you disagree, come and debate me.
Monica Attard: And that was Geert Wilders, leader of the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands. And that ends Sunday Profile. Thanks for listening and thanks also to Belinda Sommer, our producer.